Jolly Ranjan (00:00):
Welcome back to an Agile shot from a Marie. There was a lot of good reactions to the the skit for the scrum master and facilitating in retrospective that we did last time, So we are gonna do that again. We are gonna do another skit this time about a product owner who comes to planning meeting with his of her own ideas. Let's see how it goes. Welcome everyone.
All right. Hello. Thanks, team. We are all here for the, for the next planning session. We have an exciting sprint coming up. We have a bunch of things to do, guys. I mean you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm here to make sure that it all happens because it's my responsibility, right? Come up. Everyone is gonna ask me what, what happened. So we, we have our APO in the next sprint. We have to build our APO class. We have to build our training curriculum. We have a ton of marketing updates to make. We have ton of that set updates to make. And there's a lot of other things to do. We have in fact, mapping workshop. So many things going on. So let's get right down to the planning. I mean, it's, this is so this sprint is gonna be so tough.
Michael Jebber (01:20):
We've got, we've got our priorities, right? I mean, we've been working on that for a little bit. It's
Jolly Ranjan (01:25):
Optional priorities. This is our sprint code.
Michael Jebber (01:27):
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that that kinda lays it out, right? It's, I got, I'm gonna be working on the impact workshop, continuing to build that out and tie it back to what we're doing with APO and everything else. So I've got those story cards ready to go.
Jolly Ranjan (01:42):
Hey, Mike, are you the right person for it though? I mean, it seems like you, you may not have all the expertise to
Michael Jebber (01:48):
Make that happen. I've been, I just delivered the course earlier at the end of last week. Yeah, you did a great job.
Chris Daily (01:54):
Michael Jebber (01:54):
Was really well done, was up in Chicago and it went really well. That was our beta it, it, it, it, it went off. Well, we're continuing, There're asking us to continue, so I figured I would take that and expand that out and give, give our that'll give us our first, our first version of this course.
Jolly Ranjan (02:09):
So what are the details, Mike? I mean, I, I I, I would really like to know.
Michael Jebber (02:12):
Well, they're all on the story card. I mean, we've got all the, we did that in, in in all of the decomposition sessions, so, Okay. It's all there.
Jolly Ranjan (02:21):
Look at it.
Chris Daily (02:21):
Can I interrupt for a second? Sorry. Sure. Let, let's make sure as a, as a scrub master, I wanna make sure that we're all on the same page. Right? Okay. So Mike, you know, your job is really to figure out the how, right? How you're gonna go do it and what, you know, what, what the steps are. All the things are needed. Jolly Remember we talked about this in retrospective, that your job is to figure out the why right. And what you want, not how it works.
Jolly Ranjan (02:50):
Yeah. But if I don't know it, how am I gonna talk to my student? You
Michael Jebber (02:53):
Talked about the why. I mean, that's before we even went and did the, the, the beta the beta class class last week. So yeah,
Jolly Ranjan (03:00):
But I need to talk to my boss about this, and if I don't know what Mike is doing and how he's doing it I, I feel like I'm not, I can't make that conversation.
Michael Jebber (03:09):
You can bring me there, but I mean, we're ready to go. Are we gonna do the Yeah,
Kumar Dattatreyan (03:13):
I mean, I've got, I got my stories ready to go as well. Yeah. I'm working on supporting the APO class coming up and the coaching curriculum that I've been working on that, you know, we've got all the stories. I think you did a decent job writing up out the the stories and the, the features that they belong to. And so I've been working pretty, pretty well with I getting that stuff done.
Jolly Ranjan (03:34):
But what are you sure you're, you'll be busy the whole sprint though. I mean, you know, what? If you have some free time, do you, do you have like other stuff to do?
Chris Daily (03:42):
Again, jolly I want to but in here and just say, remember the team decides what they're gonna do and how they're gonna do it. Okay. Yeah. But
Jolly Ranjan (03:54):
Look at me. This doesn't get done. And wait
Chris Daily (03:56):
Minute, minute, a minute. Let me finish your comment to your question to Mike about are you the right person to do that work? That is not your role. Just to be clear, that is my, that is the team's job to figure out. Yeah. And so you need to bring up the point and you need, you, you need to bring up the question and you need to, you know, are we gonna be able to get this done? You should not be questioning the team. That is their responsibility.
Jolly Ranjan (04:24):
Chris Daily (04:25):
Jolly Ranjan (04:26):
Should I be aware of everything that's happening?
Chris Daily (04:30):
If your boss, and you want me to come and let's have a, a session to establish what your role is, I'm more than willing to do that.
Jolly Ranjan (04:40):
So let, let's, let's just hear what Ien has to say too. I mean, she,
Chris Daily (04:44):
I I wanna make sure before we go on to the team and we carry it on, you understand that as a product owner, your job is to figure out who and what and why. That's it. The how is the team?
Jolly Ranjan (04:58):
Kumar Dattatreyan (05:00):
Just, we just need to know what, where, what direction we're going. We we're gonna figure it out.
Jolly Ranjan (05:04):
Okay. Okay. I
Michael Jebber (05:05):
Feel like we've got enough from you to do that, right? Yeah.
Chris Daily (05:08):
You easy again,
Michael Jebber (05:09):
You're there too, or,
Johaimmalin Castillo (05:12):
Well, I think, are you it's, it's more, Yeah. Sorry, did I just freeze? Am I
Michael Jebber (05:17):
No, you're good. Okay.
Johaimmalin Castillo (05:18):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was just going to say that maybe it's better if we focus on managing the goals rather than managing the people. So that way we have like a clear,
Jolly Ranjan (05:30):
But, but are you okay? I mean, are you do you know what you have to do?
Johaimmalin Castillo (05:36):
Yes. on my end I'm also working hand in hand with Mar and Chris, actually, practically everyone, cuz I'm doing the courseworks. I'm supporting the, in the course making. So I do also the coursebooks, the presentations, even the content and all the marketing communications are all good to go. So from email marketing to the socials.
Jolly Ranjan (06:00):
So is your time equally out spent? I mean, are you gonna be busy all sprint?
Michael Jebber (06:14):
Kumar Dattatreyan (06:14):
That was pretty good.
Jolly Ranjan (06:16):
That really good. Thanks. Hay.
Kumar Dattatreyan (06:19):
You were just, seemed like you were just in character, John. It was amazing.
Michael Jebber (06:24):
. Yeah. Yeah.
Jolly Ranjan (06:26):
I didn't a lot of
Kumar Dattatreyan (06:27):
Michael Jebber (06:28):
Kumar Dattatreyan (06:31):
Well, I thought, I thought, Chris, you did a pretty good job as this from that it in. Yeah. I'm sure we've all seen this, right? And and the product owners that, that are more into the, the, the how get into the how get into managing the team. I love what you said, ies, you know, manage the goals, not the people. Yeah,
Jolly Ranjan (06:53):
That is really great.
Kumar Dattatreyan (06:54):
That's great. Anything else to add, you know, to this little this short video things that, advice that we might give product owners or teams to help with product owners that are intrusive?
Jolly Ranjan (07:10):
Kumar Dattatreyan (07:11):
Jolly Ranjan (07:12):
All the things that that was the undercurrent of all this is that traditionally, right, project management, people management has always been about managing individual productivity
Michael Jebber (07:26):
Jolly Ranjan (07:27):
And, and the work, right? How do you maximize the amount of time people spend on tasks and how do you maximize that individual productivity? Rarely has the thought been about team throughput as to how the whole team gets work to done. But it has been on individual productivity and that's why you see people in traditional roles who have switched to an agile environment especially product owners from Masters focusing again and again on that individual productivity and making sure that you
Michael Jebber (08:00):
Point out they bring that with them. Yeah. They bring that with them from their past. I think it's interesting, especially when Chris mentioned, you know, hey, we talked about this in the retrospective that kind of gave the idea that, hey, this is not the first time this has happened. This is a, this is a repeat offender here. We we've got some issues going on with with rolls and lanes, right? And being able to understand those. Yeah. And I thought that was I thought it was the, the, the idea around going after that right there and then, right? I, I think it was actually a, probably a good approach to say, All right, we, we gotta, this is happening again and this, we gotta talk about this, right? That idea of let's get all of these concerns of jollies out of the way so that the team can get back to doing the work and get, get that aha around the fact that you're, this isn't your role might have been in the past, that you were responsible for the work and the output where that's not the case anymore. You know, you're, it's, it's, it's all the group together. I also thought it was interesting too, as jolly kept talking about himself. Like, This is mine. This is my, like, we weren't responsible for anything or we weren't involved in it when really we are. And he didn't, he didn't have that feeling that that was the case. You
Chris Daily (09:12):
Know, Don't, don't you think there's an underlying issue to all this? And, and you kind of heard it a little bit. I heard it a little bit and I, I wonder if y'all think it's the same, look out the same way, but did you hear jolly say, you know, I need to make sure to my boss, this is all gonna get done. We've got all these deadlines. It seemed like the underlying issue was trust that jolly didn't trust the team to be the people on the team to go get the work
Michael Jebber (09:38):
Done. And Jolly was a proxy almost to his boss in that case. Yeah.
Jolly Ranjan (09:42):
Yeah. And which, which kind of points out the fact that this is not just a team problem, right? This is also an organizational problem where the levels of trust, as in my boss, their boss is, is built into this, right? And everyone is trying to make sure that things are getting done and holding the team accountable for that without thinking about their own, the part that they have to bring that team, which is empowering the team, making sure that they have the tools to succeed. Getting the organization to block us out of the way so that the team can do the best job possible at that. Given
Kumar Dattatreyan (10:17):
Michael Jebber (10:18):
How did you feel when, when Jolly was asking you about your time and how you were using your time, how did it make you feel as a team, as a member of that meeting?
Johaimmalin Castillo (10:28):
Well, I felt kind of not really offend, but something like intruded. I mean, dude, I know what to, I know what to do. I know how to manage my time and, but well as a fairly new agile practitioner, thanks to you guys, I feel like I, I, I sort of have my 2 cents on on this thing. It's really very difficult how to manage this this job as a, this role actually as a product owner. So it's really very important cuz it's easy to to cross the line. So it's really very important to know the, the why from the how. Cuz it's, it's also, it's also easy to feel like you are above the team. And I've read that it's one very bad product owner failure. So I guess it's, it's always good to stick with the, with the questions that you need to answer for your role.
Kumar Dattatreyan (11:28):
Jolly Ranjan (11:29):
Kumar Dattatreyan (11:32):
I was just gonna say, that's a really good insight. The product owner isn't above the team. The product owner is just another role on the team that they're really focused on the why and the what, what should the team be focused on mm-hmm. and providing that, that value conscience for the team. So their, their intend, their intended role is to make sure the team understands and is imbued with the same sense of product ownership, the mindset as a product owner is. So they build the right things for the right people. They understand the customers just as well as the product owner does. So the product owner really should be building a bunch of product owners on the team, you know, that think the same as, as he or she does and so on. And that's only happens when you focus on the why and the what.
Michael Jebber (12:20):
Yeah. It, it felt like we were working for jolly, not with jolly.
Jolly Ranjan (12:27):
Yeah. And ISU probably have recognized that any agile meridian we all go to make sure that, you know, Kumar is kind of the product order for the work that you do on this, right? And, but we make sure that we work with Kumar so that he can prioritize our list effectively, that we don't run we don't, we don't put things on, on top of the priority list that you have already and, and mess up your algorithm so to speak, and your workload. So that's why we make sure that Kumar knows what we are giving you and he can prioritize that list and make sure that, you know, you don't get overloaded, which is, which is really key for our product.
Michael Jebber (13:07):
Yeah. That prioritization of the what's important this week, what's important to do and what are we trying to get done. That is a huge role of that. And what was interesting is, in our skit, jolly was more focused on how we were using our time than he was about what we were going to deliver. It was very interesting. Yeah.
Jolly Ranjan (13:25):
Because, because many product owners do think that that,
Michael Jebber (13:27):
Jolly Ranjan (13:27):
Keeping track and controlling your time is key to getting things done is really that old,
Michael Jebber (13:34):
That's the relationship that they know that they're used to, Right. That they've been charged with in their past jobs. Excellent. So
Kumar Dattatreyan (13:40):
What, what do you suppose are some tips that we could share for product owners that may or may not be even aware that they're in this how mode?
Jolly Ranjan (13:53):
Yeah. Great, great question, Kumar. I mean, one of the, one of the tricks that I have always used is work with the team. When you, when you prep for a sprint, right? Don't do this in a vacuum don't bring the priority list to the planning meeting without anyone knowing what that means. Work with the team. And it, it means that you are an active participant in the, in the refinement sessions, in the, in the pre-planning meetings if you have them in your daily stand ups. And be aware of what's going on in the current sprint as well. And if you involve the team, you will get a lot of the hows from them as, as FYI more than, Hey, this is how we are gonna do this. And that rounds out to your knowledge about what the team is doing, maybe why, I mean, you come up with a why team is doing some what they're doing and get some of the house as well, which gives you a more rounded picture. Doesn't mean that you now take over the house, but it gives you more rounded picture and it makes you aware that is one way to get in front of them.
Kumar Dattatreyan (14:58):
Yeah, that's good. I was thinking also that, you know, for a product owner to be to, to build their self-awareness it's important that they listen to feedback, you know, in retrospectives and even in a planning meeting, if the product owner's doing the majority of the talking, then that's not a planning meeting. That's a, that's a, that's a, a bad sign that the team isn't participating, isn't talking, isn't asking question, is isn't, you know, they're, they're basically if, and that's just sort of a situation. Their order takers, they're waiting for the product owner to tell them what to do and maybe to the extent to how to do it as well. Right? And that's, that's a big no-no. Yeah.
Michael Jebber (15:38):
That's the conversion from the requirements document world and giving get, tell me what, how you want generated and how you want that generated versus the here's the outcome I'm looking for. Here's my intent, here's the in here's the impact I'm trying to have. How would you suggest we go about doing that using your expertise and your knowledge and everything else? And that's, that's a hard, hard conversion. I mean, even for team members, we've all worked with teams that aren't comfortable with making that transition either. They're like, No, just gimme what I want to do. Let me stay in my lane. I'll produce what you want if it's not what you want. Cuz you didn't ask for it. Right. And I did what you told me. And there's a lot, there's that ownership that sometimes teams are a little team members and teams are a little reluctant to assume because now they're, they're, they're part of the deliverable. They, they, they own the success of that deliverable versus if it's a requirements document, sometimes you can say, Well this is what you said, this is what you wanted, regardless of what it was, what you actually needed. So there, there's that, those cultural aspects are huge, especially in new teams for sure.
Kumar Dattatreyan (16:47):
Chris Daily (16:48):
I don't wanna be the dogmatic guy, but I'll go ahead and do it for the purpose of this video. You know, one of the things that, that I learned early on when I was, when I was a, a young budding scrum master, I guess I've never been a young budding scrum master
Kumar Dattatreyan (17:05):
Kumar Dattatreyan (17:08):
Probably young ones, Chris .
Chris Daily (17:10):
True. originally the, the way it was laid out in the scrum guide was the first half of the meeting, the first half of the sprint planning meeting was the product owner talking about what they wanted to do. The second half of the sprint planning meeting was the team figuring out how they were going to accomplish that work and what they could get done mm-hmm. , right? And, and the product owner was still there. But clarifying, and I sometimes will use that kind of an approach with a product owner. You, you lay out what you think you want to get done, right. In priority order, ask for clarifying questions and then shut up and let the team do their work.
Michael Jebber (17:53):
That structure would've helped this meeting specifically. It really would've. Yeah. Cuz it would've given jolly the opportunity to get a lot of this stuff out and then an opportunity for us to, we wouldn't have been so back and forth. It would've been helpful.
Chris Daily (18:06):
Yeah. The, the problem with what I just said though is that some people will say that's the only way you do sprint planning.
Michael Jebber (18:12):
Chris Daily (18:12):
That's the way. And it just doesn't work that way. But it is one way you can help, you know, set some boundaries. You know, the other thing might be create an agenda, right? That says, Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna, what are we gonna talk about? Have the product on, list those things out and send it out in advance so that you're moving down the agenda rather than you know, him controlling the conversation.
Michael Jebber (18:36):
Chris Daily (18:37):
I'm not a big fan of agendas, but sometimes you have to do that.
Kumar Dattatreyan (18:40):
I think that's a, that's a really good point. You know, agendas for any type of meeting including planning is so important. We just did a facilitation class and that's one of the things that I think was a big takeaway. Big aha for for that class. Not that it's anything new. People always say, Hey, for any kind of meeting you need to have an agenda. But just the, the work that goes into building the agenda is, is you know, quite a bit, you know, for a product owner and the scrum mass or together to think about, okay, so what's our goal? You know, who all needs to be there? What other, what stakeholders might need to be there? You know, thinking about all the, the pieces and parts that's gonna make that planning session successful, Right? Takes time.
Chris Daily (19:22):
You just don't want to show up and say, Okay, let's start planning and the product owner not have any idea of what going back to a's point what the goals are, right? Yeah. What are the goals of this sprint and what is it I'm really trying to accomplish? And if they're just making it up as they go, right. If they just come in and just throw up all over the table, it can be pretty, that can be pretty difficult to get through.
Johaimmalin Castillo (19:46):
Right. And I feel like not having a goal is, you know, the, the product owner tends to give arbitrary deadlines to people.
Chris Daily (19:56):
Kumar Dattatreyan (19:57):
. Yeah. I I like what you came up with, ie. I think it's, it's, it's quotable managed goals, not people. Nice. it's a good one. Hey
Chris Daily (20:06):
Ies. So with no repercussions, does Kumar do that? Does he focus on the goal? Not
Michael Jebber (20:15):
Chris Daily (20:16):
You don't have to answer that.
Johaimmalin Castillo (20:20):
I think Kumar is actually doing a pretty good job. I mean, he, he knows when a button and he knows I should have a race, right? , seriously, he knows when to really actually get in there and are, are you doing well? Is there a problem? Or she, he, he also knows when to just leave me alone. You know what to do, okay. Just give me the deliverables and times that you promised me. Or sometimes, especially when it's a time sensitive task. He does give me when he needs it, which was very helpful.
Michael Jebber (20:50):
You know, there's one thing Aise that I love that you do as well is the team members. You, you ask when you need more. Right? When you need more, Hey guys, I need this, I need that. This is something that I need. So that communication is a two-way thing. And I think it's, it's fantastic when you have that psychological safety and trust built up. That's where those frameworks can help, is when you have that environment that is devoid of those two things. The frameworks can help over time build them. And then the framework isn't really as necessary. Cuz now that trust and that psychological safety is making up for a lot of things that the framework was trying to hold, trying to instill into the, the process side of it. Yeah. But I think, yeah, that two way communication and that freedom and comfort to be able to say, That's great, but I need more. Why are we doing this? Why what? Give me some more clarity so I can really produce something really good for you.
Kumar Dattatreyan (21:39):
So yeah, this is, this is great. Any closing thoughts? We're getting to where it's not as short anymore. ,
Michael Jebber (21:47):
We've gone over 20 minutes. It's a sh it's no longer a short, it's a medium. Yeah.
Kumar Dattatreyan (21:52):
All right. Well it seems like we're all, we're all pretty happy with with what we talked. I mean, there's, this is a big topic, right? So the role of the product owner, and this is just one aspect of it. The, the persona, the know it all product owner. And, and there's nothing wrong with knowing at all. It's just a matter of building your emotional intelligence and being self-aware that, hey, your job as Aise so eloquently put it, is to manage the goals and, and make sure that you focus on the why and the what and, and not manage the people. That's not really your role to do. So. Thanks for watching. Hopefully leave us some comments what you thought of this and we'll see you next time. Thanks a lot. Bye-Bye.
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Product Owner #Fails; The Know it all #productow... (Completed 10/28/22)
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