Happy New Year, everyone. This is Kumar Dattatreyan and Glenn Marshall again, and we're gonna be talking all about XSCALE And and in this episode, we're gonna be covering, permaculture principles seven and eight Glenn, I hope you had a wonderful holiday. And, what did you do for your Christmas break? It it it was a staycation, but but I was away from work. So that was a good break. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Same here. I had I had a bunch of things to to catch up on. So, stayed at home. So if you have been watching this series, we've been following the permaculture principles and comparing them to XSCALE ecosystem thinking principles, which these principles from XSCALE really based on or based on inspired by, I should say, the permaculture principles. And so we're up to principal 7, 7th, permaculture principle and of course the 7th ecosystem principle. So I'll just read what the 7th, permaculture principle is. Let me just scroll down here. because I don't remember it off the top of my head, and it is designed from patterns to details. And so what it inspired with with, with Peter Merel and his merry band of, ecosystem thinking coaches is this principle design breath first. So maybe we can start by just describing at least as much as, our time allows, we're not gonna get into a very deep discussion, but what does it mean to design from patterns to details from permaculture perspective. Wanna take that, take a stab at that, Glenn. From a permaculture perspective, the analogy that they use is that of a of a spider web. The spider doesn't start in the inside. The spider starts on the outside. It looks for things to to connect it to and look, you know, looks at the big picture, looks at the the other example that they talk about is the forest versus the trees. So you you do need to take a step back and and sort of scale, survey the landscape see what you have to work with and then build with that in mind. And and and I the, you know, don't don't wanna jump ahead too much, but the the the connections to organizations are very powerful. So this is this is a a deeply resonant principle, at least for me. Yeah. I I agree. it is very resonant and and certainly does apply to organizational structures. We don't really think about designing organizations this way. they're sort of built haphazardly. And then actually, really, permaculture is an attempt to move away from how we design farms because farms are also you know, traditional farms are designed haphazardly. It's just, okay, let's plant this crop here and plant that crop there. And, you know, we can rotate crops once every year or 2 years or whatever. And what what that ends up doing is, of course, degrading the soil, the ground, the and so then we have to pump a bunch of fertilizers into the ground to build it back up. It may even cause erosion of the top soil layer, which then we have to bring more top soil in and and, build that back up so that it can sustain the next yield. Remember yield sustaining a yield is one of the principal permaculture principles. Right? And so from a permaculture perspective, it's taking a broader view of how plants and the ecosystem that supports the growth of these plants, how they interrelate and how they, how the the ecosystem supports the growth of various crops and how various crops can be planted together to enhance the yield of each and also sustain the soil that gives them life And so go ahead. I was gonna say, I I think, traditional farming, with its focus on optimization, doesn't even get into crop rotation. just plant a single crop, throw on fertilizer and to replace the nutrients. Just keep doing it again and again. And, of course, the the soil depletes over time. Rotation is is kind of a permaculture principle. You're right. You you are absolutely right. I I remember driving through the bread basket of, the US, you know, in Napa Valley, not Napa Valley, but sort of the valley there between, San Francisco and Los Angeles, you know, where they grow all kinds of fruits and vegetables and you know, just acres and acres miles and miles of orchards. Right? And I I always wonder, you know, what do they have to do to keep these fruits? from these trees to continue bearing fruit, you know, season after season after season, And what happens when they reach their end of life? They probably just, you know, cut them all down and plant new trees. Right? there is no real rotation there. And and so I'm sure it affects their yields. And and California is actually a good example of this. There's a serious water shortage there. But the farms have been allocated, huge percentages of of the water that's available, and they're kind of cavalier about it. That they're growing water intensive crops because they're not thinking like an ecosystem. Sustainable farming, thinking about the ecosystem as a whole, thinking more at the big picture, the patterns, the boundaries, the inputs and the outputs of the system when designing a farm or designing a farm and how it co is it coexist with the community that depends on it. Right? and and they're very strong parallels when designing organizations. So maybe we can kind of switch and move in that direction. And this is a concern that I have with many of the organizations that I've worked in that they're not really designed to respond to the markets and to the to the ecosystem and environment in which they work. They tend to be hierarchical and structured and not really thinking about, you know, working together and and looking at at at synergies between markets. Peter talks about the the gaps between markets. where can we expand? We're in one market. Where can we grow laterally and and expand and lever what we already have established? so this is something that that I I think a lot of organizations don't consider, to their to their great detriment. There there's there's capacity there that is not being used. Yeah. You're you're absolutely right. And and, the ecosystem thinking principle to your point. It's really about stepping back to see patterns, in and between markets and in and between business streams. So what he means here is, of course, It's easy to understand the patterns between markets. It's the markets that either consume or produce, goods services that are consumed or produced by some other markets. So there's a relationship there. So being able to see those patterns, good example would be I know you like to talk about Apple. But the whole ecosystem around Apple and all the different products that they produce, they don't they don't build everything from scraps by themselves. I mean, they have a huge ecosystem of of, of, that that will that will basically exists only because of Apple Right? The there's so many companies out there that exist to serve Apple and of course they've diversified since then. You know, the the the companies that make the chips and the companies that make the software and the companies that make the games that, millions of people play on their iPhones and so on and so forth, this whole ecosystem exists because of how Apple designed it. They designed their ecosystem in a way such that they would be able to, derive mutual benefit from their their partners whether they're explicit partners or implicit because they serve some niche in the marketplace that Apple created. I think it's fascinating to drill down even deeper than that. think about how Apple started. It's going back a couple of years now and a number of years. But they started with iTunes. Then they brought out the iPod, then they brought out the iPhone, but each built on each other. Yeah. Is a great example of applying this in between markets, Notion. And, a more modern example is is Tesla. Tesla bringing out the the the cars, the electric cars, which is the biggest component of which is the certain by by cost is the batteries, but now they've got the batteries down. They're going in, leveraging that and making energy systems. They claim that the energy systems are is gonna be bigger than the automotive business, which kind of boggles my mind, but this is a but this is reusing and finding an adjacent market. Right. And certainly their supercharger network is is, you know, was a closed ecosystem. as as recently as, you know, 6 months ago, 8 months ago. but now it has been opened up Right? Other cars, other manufacturers are going to be able to use the Tesla supercharger network. Yep. And so it's It's, again, looking at patterns between between markets and business streams. So Ford's will be able to charge their cars at the Tesla supercharger station Chevy's will and Hyundai's will. I think Hyundai is is signed on. That's what Volvo did and all these other companies are doing doing it. Of course, to the detriment, maybe, of the Tesla owners, me being one of them. I don't want these other cars taking my my spot at the Tesla Supercharger station. Well, let's say it's not all the super charges. They're only opening up, a percentage of them, but, again, showing synergy. Now the, US government is giving Tesla money to go and open more superchargers. So, you know, this this synergistic thing, and it's not and it's not all. But, you know, I'm confident that they'll they'll scale this up, but but it it extends beyond that, extends to the to the power wall. And to the those gigantic, I think they call them mega mega chargers, basically a battery in a shipping container. Like, what a power plant in a hurry. Right. Right. Living container. Yeah. So, you know, again, fabulous innovations. And and another example is the self driving. Yeah. that, of course, is gonna be scaled up the trucks, but now it's also being scaled over to the the, humanoid robot. So the same software, works for cars and will will do other things in this completely new market for for robots. So, again, focused and constantly looking for these, adjacent markets and and gaps and things, you know, Tesla is another example of of of what Apple has done. It's it's a good example of how they're looking at at, at, business streams. So the business stream of the car and then the power generation. And then, of course, the robot, the self driving, the superchargers. These are all different business streams. But they're looking at how to synergize all these things into 1, into into a series. How how can they benefit from each other? Right? What is the mutual benefit that exists between these different business streams. And not all companies do this or do this very well. Especially as companies grow in size and become more bureaucratic. It it disturbs me that that this is so rare. It it's so powerful, yet it's so rare. And when you can do this, you build an ecosystem that is that is orders of magnitude more powerful and more profitable than just a single product line. Right. And and you and you have to do it because products are constantly getting obsolete. That's that's right. So so in in summary, we're about 12 minutes. So we wanna keep this you know, fairly short. designing breadth first or, or that's the ecosystem thinking principle. Or, the the, permaculture principle is designed from patterns to details It's really all about taking a systemic view of the organization and understanding the the the market or markets that you serve and how can you create some synergies between them? Between the business streams that are serving these markets. it's it's it's not just intra organizational. It's extra organizational. So meaning How does your company, how does it interact with other companies, whether implicitly or explicitly? So exactly. Would you say did I miss anything? No. You you absolutely nailed it. it it Tesla is a good example of of being, focusing this principle internally, but also externally. Yeah. there's one last point I just thought of is that they've they've open sourced all this stuff. I mean, it's available. Yep. There's nothing that's really proprietary, you know, even even the, the hyperloop stuff, which they're I think they use some of it to build their their tunnels, the boring company, which I don't know where that is that's going, but all of that stuff has been been open source. So anyone can can sort of take advantage of it. Ready to move on to principle 8. Let's do it. Alright. Principal 8, permaculture Principle 8 is integrate rather than segregate. Alright. So, I'll just read a couple of points or, you know, try to explain a couple of points and maybe you can jump in and talk a little bit more about the permaculture principle first, and then we'll dive into the ecosystem thinking and how it compares to it. so it it really the the the principle 8 from permaculture focuses on creating beneficial relationships between between design elements to integrate them into more a self regulating system. So it's kind of a repeat in some ways. A lot of these things are They all kind of dovetail together. All these principles. Right? So we kinda just said this in the last one, hey, take a systems view. It's about figuring out what crops work together well. Want you don't wanna design from the inside out. You wanna design from the outside in. In this case, it's really about the relationships between the things that you're planting or, the systems that are going to be supporting the things that you're planting from an agricultural perspective. Mhmm. What would you add to that? the traditionally, again, comes back to to the farms. Things are not integrated. You you pump one thing down here, or or you even have a a monoculture. You just have a single crop on a massive massive farm. But this this is all about, looking at the various components and making sure that they have relationships between them. Relationships, I think, is the keyword in this in this. Yeah. And what a good example on a farm would be, free range chickens, right, that are that are part of a, a permaculture, farm. And the chickens, they aren't just free range because people like to you know, eat free ranch chickens because they haven't been fed soy or whatever. They also serve a purpose on the farm. Because they they scratch the ground and they leave their droppings and that the the the act of doing that actually adds nitrogen to the soil, the the fertilizer to the soil. They eat little bugs and insects and things and keep some of the pests out, and eat the pest that actually might damage the the crops that are growing there. And so there's an integration of the different systems here that allow for a more vibrant and healthy farm? I'm not sure about the animal angle. and and free range chicken is kind of complicated. But but definitely in terms of crops, I haven't really thought about about the animals to be to be perfectly honest. and, but even free range is kind of not really free range if you if you start digging into it. But but but the plants, I think, are are powerful. I mean, I think about it though. You know, the chickens, if they are, you know, allowed to feed on whatever they find, their natural diet there. I'm never a cell eat anything. Worms and bugs and, you know, of course, vegetable matter and stuff like that. And I there there is it's part of the natural ecosystem, right? and so why wouldn't it be a way to integrate what's this thing called? integrate rather than segregate. You don't want all the chickens in a chicken coop. Because then they're doing no good except well, you know, eating feed and uh-uh excreting junk that doesn't do any good to the farm. It it it's true. Having having true free range chickens, which which most free range isn't isn't actually free free range, but having true free range chickens like like a traditional farm a number of years ago, Yes. I would I would agree with you. they they tend to be fenced in, like, around the the the barn. So they're they're free range, but you're like, you don't want them going the road. That kinda stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think with the this is permaculture, right, we're talking about with in permaculture farming, you would see things like this where you have different systems that are integrated rather than segregated. Yep. Right? It's deliberately integration and the deliberate integration of, of animal systems and plant systems for some mutual benefit to both. And you would see that. And I I never recall reading that, I I think it was ducks. Some some animal, some, I believe, was a bird, was eating some pests. And rather than you pesticides, you you have a natural pesticide, in, not a pesticide, but a a pest removal agent in in in an animal. Right. Exactly. And so I think that's that's the gist of this. So how does this apply to, corporate structures? This one, I think, is is also particularly juicy. focus on building relationships with other disciplines, other business functions, how we can work together cooperatively. it could be, with with the finance department, or it could be with another engineering group. If you're an engineering firm, but the idea is to focus on relationships. Don't don't delegate build relationships. Just like with with the permaculture, the the parallels are very strong. So so, yeah, the the critical word here, to my mind, is relationship. Yeah. Exactly. and and I I don't know if you remember the, the whole the old scrum adage Right? The it was something about chickens and pigs. How did that go? do you remember that? I I I do. the, Uh-huh. Don't don't be a chicken or don't be a don't be a pig, you know, be a chicken. I don't know. The chicken gets their neck rung in the product owner. Right? The pigs they just, what was it the other way around? They just lay the eggs in any way. Yeah. The pigs are more They're more invested because, yeah, you know, they they produce the bacon. And so, of course, they can give up their lives for that chickens. They just lay the egg it's a bit of a harsh analogy, but Not a really good analogy, but but it just came to mind because I was talking about chickens and when when I when we're talking about permaculture. So there's a segue there. That's that's how my mind works anyway, No. I I hear you. Like, I I do that all. Right. So in in, in corporate cultures, it's about, to your point, it's about collaborating in, and working together. And rather than just delegating the work, it's about, hey. How can we do this? The the nature of this principle in an organization's Hey. How can we work on this together rather than, hey, Glenn. Go can you go do this? See you later. Right. And the typical organization structure being hierarchical doesn't encourage us. So this does Right. There's some creativity and some thoughtfulness in how you arrange your your reward mechanisms, for example. You wanna reward and encourage collaboration, which is which is hard. Yeah. Well, hey. Look at most successful companies. I I would say a good reason they're successful is because of the the level of collaboration that exists between their people and their teams. Right? and and as companies get bigger and bigger, that gets harder to maintain, but it's so critically important that you preserve that sort of network structure within the company. You know, when you're small, when you're a small startup, it's much easier. Right? A company of 20. It's really easy to keep track of everyone and and and work in more mutually beneficial relationships. But as the company grows, then it's much harder to keep things, and people straight and which is why these hierarchical structures exist in the first place. It's an attempt for some order. Would you say that's true? And and we do need order, but order shouldn't come at the expense of collaboration. Yes. we we do even in these network ecosystem models, we do need to respect the discipline. Like, finance is a good example. Finance has to make sure that the that you keep the lights on. but but they can work cooperatively, with with other, groups and other teams and and there's great benefit when they when they do that. Absolutely. Alright. I think We've covered it pretty well. This the 8th principle again is from permaculture is, integrate rather than segregate and the 8th ecosystem principle is really it's what's floating down in the bottom of your screen. There's more to it. It's don't delegate, but collaborate. I'll read the whole thing. People and teams are in the right relationships when their conversations evolve to support each other's work and learning. I think that's a powerful statement, right? So they are in the right relationships when these things happen. So, if these things don't happen, that means there's something missing in the relationship between people and teams. And there's something else that jumped out of me, when I looked that over. It there's It's implied the notion of balance. Don't be unifocus. Look at the big picture. Have a balanced view of of the various things that are going on. Don't just be unifocused. Right. Good point. Very good point. Alright. Any parting thoughts before we end this segment? you mentioned learning as well as work. Right? Correct. Yep. Yeah. That's that's so important. Each other's work and learning. Yes. I think that's a And that's come up before in some of the principles we covered earlier. Yep. Right, principle to capture and store learning and small self organizing teams as these work on the current bottleneck, they become capable of opening future ones. So that's really focused on one team. This is this is really about taking a a broader view. Like, this the 7th and 8th principle is taking a broader view and looking at how are teams collaborating with each other? How do they share it learning with each other? and so, you know, like, just like the permaculture principles, they sort of all dovetail build upon each other so do the ecosystem thinking principles? Yep. The, I do find it interesting, how the how all these principles, you know, have relationships between each other. Yeah. And they dovetail, but, that that so the principles themselves are an ecosystem. That's interesting. you just blew my mind. Their principles are an ecosystem. Interesting. So one cannot exist just by itself. I can, but I don't know how much benefit you would get from just one, just doing one without the other. If the other things didn't exist, it would probably wither and die just like, a, a single crop farm eventually will fail because the soil has been used up. For for a single product company would would get obsolete by competitors. Yeah. well, this is a great place to end. I mean, on a high note, my goodness. My my my my, hairs in the back of my neck are tingling. Wow. Alright, Glenn. This has been fun. We'll see you all in a month where we'll cover principles nine and ten and then 2 months from now, we'll cover the last 2. And then I don't know what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk about something, but we'll there's lots to talk about. So Alright. Thanks for watching. See you all later. Bye bye.