Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, depending on where in the world you're signing in from. This is Kumar Dattatreyan, your host from the Meridian Point. And today, I am thrilled to introduce you to our guest, Inga Hebden. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right, so I'm sure she'll correct me when she comes on stage. She's the founder of Midea International Limited, a premier advisory and coaching firm named after the cunning enchantress from Greek mythology. I have questions about that. Midea International empowers clients to win new business tenders and elevate team and leadership performance.
With over two decades of experience in human connection, business strategy, and communication, Inga has held posts at global firms like Visa, Deloitte, KPMG, and Gartner. As a certified coach, ICF member, and APMP and Prince 2 accredited professional, Inga now dedicates her time to helping clients achieve their own versions of the Golden Fleece, I have to ask what that is, through enhanced leadership, influence, and strategic thinking skills. We're thrilled to have Inga here today and have her share her insights in driving business or success in business and leadership.
Welcome, Inga.
Thank you so much for having me, and I'm more than happy to answer any questions you have, in particular around Medea.
That's wonderful. So first question is, how do you say your last name?
Hebden.
So I got it right. Wow.
Yeah, you did. Absolutely.
Awesome. Awesome. Alright. So, let's see. Where do we start? So maybe I'll start with what I read in your intro. What is the Golden Fleece?
So it is part of the Medea story. It is basically a symbol for kingship and success. So as you said in the intro, Medea is a figure in Greek mythology, an enchantress really, who helped her husband obtain the golden fleece, which was, I think, kind of the skin, basically the skin of a male sheep. But it is that symbol of kingship and success and leadership and all of that. And she basically worked in the background and helped him obtain it, and that's the only thing I keep saying I have in common with people. I work in the background. I enable others to be successful. I challenge their thinking. I don't have a magic wand, but the magic happens with coaching and with powerful conversations.
The story of Medea has a very gruesome ending, which is certainly not what I have in common with her. So we won't go into that.
We won't go into that? No. Let's not. Maybe at the end. I just do want to know what the gruesome ending is. Just not because it's something that's going to happen with your client, but just from a story standpoint, it might be interesting.
So your website, you really are your website after all. You place a strong importance or emphasis on the importance of presence, especially for women and people of color. Can you talk a little bit about that? What does it mean to have presence?
That's a really good point. I often compare... you know, we all have experienced these kind of people who literally walk in a room and the room just goes silent. Because they... and we can't really pinpoint why that is. But they just exude the type of confidence and authority and really natural type of leadership. And people automatically look up to those individuals and want to hear their opinion, what they have to say. And it's that kind of thing. And the nice thing about it, it can actually be learned. It's not something people are born with. And it takes time, like with everything. It takes time and it takes practice, but it's teachable or it's coachable if one would want that.
And, obviously, the further up the career ladder you go, the more important that kind of presence becomes because you or people who go up the career ladder, they face different types of audiences. They need to, all of a sudden, address audiences or different types of audience in different ways. They need to tune into. They need to flex their communication style. And, obviously, all of that can feel quite uncomfortable. And you won't have that type of presence if you feel uncomfortable. If you don't feel you have the credibility to back it all up.
So and I think women in particular, they struggle with it a little bit more. I'm generalizing. Right? There's always an exception to the rule. But in general, women have more of an issue to feel heard or to make themselves heard and to create their voice. And therefore, I find it quite important to enable, in particular, women with having that type of executive presence where they feel that confidence and when they walk into a room and they don't feel like they, "Oh my god. I need to wait until I'm allowed to speak."
Yeah. No. That's... I certainly have experienced that, I suppose. You know, early in my career, I was terrified of speaking in public. And, over time, of course, I got over that fear. But even so, I remember some of my early experiences speaking, right, and delivering a presentation. And people seem to like it, but some of the evaluations I got, especially from my boss was, you need to develop more gravitas or, you know, you need to have more presence when you get up on stage or whatever. And I'm like, yeah. Okay. I don't know what that means, but I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
Yeah. I mean, I didn't know what that means, but I just, you know, I felt that.
Yeah. How do you get there? Right? How do you get there?
Exactly. Everybody can tell you, that's what you need, but nobody's able to help you to actually get to that point.
Exactly. That was my... I think that was my feeling at the time. It's like, okay. Great. Thanks for the feedback. How do I get there? Yeah. You know?
Yeah. And gravitas, funny you should say that. Right? So gravitas is one of the three key elements of the executive presence. So it's gravitas, communication, and believe it or not, appearance. Because it does play a role. You dress according to the expectations of your environment. That's all what appearance is all about. But obviously, like you rightly said, gravitas, massive topic.
It is a big topic.
Yeah. It is a big topic. And so maybe you can share an example of how you helped a client sort of develop gravitas and a communication style that was effective for him or her and whether appearance really played a role in that or not. Curious.
So starting with the latter, with appearance, it does play a role. Just think about the effect it would have on you if you walk into a room and you're completely dressed like anybody else. You're completely dressed in a completely different way like everybody else. How confident do you feel? It depends, obviously, how, you know, what the circumstances are. Some might feel more confident than others even though they don't feel they dress appropriately. But in one way or another, it kind of knocks away, chips away on that confidence, at least a little bit for them. I've never met anybody who said, no, I feel absolutely fine. So appearance does play a role.
And also on the other hand, if you see somebody walking into a room and you have a certain expectation, and I keep telling people an example with a bank manager. Right? If you go into your bank and the bank manager shows up in shorts, flip-flops, and a Hawaiian T-shirt, how seriously do you take them? Right? So we do have certain expectations on what people should look like or what they should wear in certain circumstances and certain types of roles.
Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. Just as a quick comment. I can see that. Although, I have to say that some of the people that I admire the most were those people that didn't look exceptionally well-dressed or even well-groomed sometimes, but they compensated for that with their confidence and their knowledge and their gravitas, really, you know, and their ability to communicate. Yeah. What do you say to that?
It's true. Yeah. It's true. But it takes a lot to get to that stage. Right? So, I mean, for example, so I'm a huge fan of Simon Sinek, for example. If you see him in interviews, he looks relatively casual. So he's certainly not one who is always very polished. But he still dresses like a professional, and in a very authentic way. I would assume that it took some time for him to be really comfortable in this setting and dressing the way he does and not worrying too much about it, hence not being dressed in a suit and a tie or a three-piece suit, for example.
So in my experience, it takes some development and some experience and development and confidence in particular. And having already gained some credibility. So, you know, everything which lies under the umbrella of gravitas is basically already there. So you can worry less about the appearance. So the percentage of the importance of appearance is kind of decreasing if you're increasing all your other skills.
I suppose it makes sense that, you know, you're sort of building a brand. And if you always show up in suits and you start to build your communication style and your gravitas and you suddenly showed up in a beach shirt and shorts, you'll probably still gain an audience and be able to influence their thinking and behavior. And I mean, not that that's your goal, but you are still going to be able to get attention to the things that you're trying to say and be able to convey it because you've already built a brand. They're going to be like, why is he dressed this way? But then, of course, they see that you're the same person. Your communication is the same. So you've sort of transcended one of those pillars, if you will.
Yeah. Well, and also, of course, it should be authentic. Right? So if you, if one is a person of always liking to wear a three-piece suit or, you know, as a female always wearing a nice business dress with a jacket. Right? If that's your go-to and that's how you feel comfortable, then this should be displayed. And then you probably kind of seek out certain types of audience. But, unfortunately, we do live in a world where we have certain expectations on appearances.
Yeah. Absolutely. It is true. Of course, if you're well-dressed and you, you know, social norms being what they are, you look the part, if you will. If you don't have those other two elements, then people will quickly see through that. Right? And won't pay you much attention anyway.
Yeah. And it also can function as, maybe armor is too much of, it's too strong of a word, but it can help you with your own mindset. It's the well, I'm dressing up for this occasion. So I'm feeling already better about myself. And that little bit of feeling better about yourself will also translate into a better presence or something which people recognize in a different way.
Yeah. That makes sense. So do you have an example of someone that you've helped improve their any one of these pillars or all three of them that you can talk about?
Less so on the appearance. So I worked in industries where people would professionally dress in a certain way already. Hence, the males would usually be in a suit and the females in something according to that. So in a business outfit. So I never really had to address the appearance. But I've worked with different partners, senior partners in professional service firms or directors, or sometimes more junior individuals, in particular, helping them on bigger sales initiatives or sales opportunities where they had somebody like me to guide them through the process. And part of the process was also helping them to prepare for the presentation.
And that was, you know, when you're pitching for multimillion-dollar deals, practicing the presentation is crucial. Absolutely crucial because your proposal, the one you've handed in beforehand, can be absolutely... you nailed it. But if you falter during the presentation, you probably won't get chosen. And then you have to answer quite a few questions in terms of, well, you were the front runner. Why on earth did you lose it on the presentation? What happened? So I was there and helped multiple teams to really practice that pitch or the presentation.
And it was a combination of team dynamics because some of the team members, you know, they didn't know each other. So you really need to start from scratch and help the different types of team members create some kind of trust and rapport. And that was down to me coming up with certain types of exercises and just conversations and workshops where people have the chance to actually get to know one another and learn how to trust one another. And then, obviously, developing the entire messaging of it and practicing through rehearsals and team rehearsals as well as one-on-one.
And there's a lot of feedback in there from myself as well as facilitating a conversation amongst the different team members because simply because I got brought in as the expert doesn't necessarily mean that I knew it all, in particular, when it got quite technical. So it was down to me to facilitate that conversation to create an environment where every single team member was comfortable enough to share their feedback no matter where they're set in the hierarchy. And that can be sometimes really tricky if you have, if the team is mixed with people from different hierarchy levels. And giving the younger people or the more junior people the voice, that was pretty much also down to me in the way I facilitated the conversation, the expectations I set with the more senior people in the room. So if I would put a number on it, 300 plus people.
That's amazing. And I like the detail you provide. It's not just a one-on-one conversation. It's really helping the group of people around that individual so that they're all successful. And it's almost like you're cultivating this ability for that individual and maybe everyone on the team to be more aware of their presence, their own presence, and also be able to consume the feedback that they're getting. Because that's a skill, I believe that's a skill that you're not born with. Because feedback, most people when they hear the word feedback, it has a bit of a negative connotation. Oh, this is a criticism. This is something I'm doing wrong. And so I feel that maybe through these workshops and the coaching that you provide, you're helping people see feedback in a different way. Would you comment on that?
Yeah. And you're right. Often feedback is seen as a negative in terms of, yeah, I've done something wrong. I need to be ashamed of it, or I'm embarrassed about it, and I'm not good enough. All those kinds of things obviously come to mind. I find it really helpful to frame it from the beginning and to set the expectation. And then, because that's crucial. If I just storm in and I give some feedback and, you know, in particular, if I'm pointing out things which are not well received based on what I know about the audience in terms, because I have a debrief and all of that. If I then all of a sudden point that out with no context, obviously, I'm going to alienate the person. And that's not very productive. Quite the opposite.
So it is my responsibility to really lay out the expectations from the get-go and really provide reasoning for the entire process we're going through and making sure that I am answering any kind of questions and addressing any concerns anybody might have when it comes to the way they're perceiving or processing any information, in particular feedback. So all of that needs to be done in the beginning. And then in addition to that, the way feedback is delivered is also crucial.
So I comment on what I see in terms of behaviors. I see patterns I observe, language I hear. Those are the things I provide my feedback upon. But I will never criticize the person's beliefs, values, or even identity. So if we're going down that route of criticizing somebody's identity, of course, it's going to be seen as an attack. I mean, naturally, I would feel attacked if somebody would criticize me in terms of who I am or even worse, call me stupid. So, of course, that's not going to fly. So there is an art to the way of providing feedback, but the context setting and expectation setting and providing reasoning is equally important.
Yeah. I totally agree with that. I think that you probably model the type of behavior expected by giving effective feedback that isn't directed at the person. It's really the behavior that you observe, the thing that you hear. Whatever it is, you're pinpointing those things and helping people see those as separate from them. It's not their fault necessarily. It's just you observed and what do you think and how might you improve it?
When it comes to setting the expectation, it's also asking them if there's a preferred way for them to receive feedback. So, because I have my own idea. I have my own definition, but it's important to open up the conversation, to open up the floor and say, listen, how as you, as a team, how would you like to proceed? How should we do the feedback round? Here's the reason why feedback is really important. Because it's basically, you know, we're holding a mirror in front of you, but we've got options. What do you think? What should we do? So involving everybody involved in that conversation, that's also very helpful, I've seen in the past.
Yeah. That sounds very powerful. Maybe something I might do in group situations, in group workshops, things like that. Might borrow that from you. I think I do something similar.
Yeah. I only had good experience with, I mean, I'm not saying that everything goes well, but it's particularly at first, at the first time. And I did find myself in situations where I had to almost protect some individuals of the group and making sure that they get heard and offer some one-on-one coaching in order to really get that going, as well as taking a sidebar with the overpowering people in the room and addressing that. So, you know, so many different layers to it is fascinating.
Yeah. Definitely. And it sounds like you are someone that is able to observe the whole or sort of the group dynamics and be able to pick up the behaviors of not just one individual or the conversation between two, but really see how everyone else is reacting as well. You have that ability to listen to the whole and pick out the disturbance, if you will, and the communication that's going on within the group. And so that's a skill, that right there is a skill. I know that because it's a hard thing to develop, being able to listen to the group as a whole and be able to observe the types of things that are going on in there.
So I have a question. You say that you like to stay in the background. You don't like the spotlight. And yet, you coach people to achieve their own golden fleece, which requires gravitas, presence, you know, all these things. There seems to be... I mean, do you really need that in order to be successful?
Yeah. So I think because I had to work hard in order to get to where I am now and be comfortable speaking in front of audiences and doing, you know, workshops or even trainings where I have 50 plus people in the room. Sometimes, you know, a few levels up even though I'm the specialist. I'm standing in a different way in the hierarchy and making sure that I get heard and that people listen to me. Okay. So I'm also an introvert. So I, yeah, I enjoy being in the background. I enjoy it when I see others develop, and I know how hard it can be because I guess, well, I'm still working on it. I'm still a project.
Yeah. That's my story as well. I'm more introverted than I am extroverted. I mean, I'm not going to go volunteer and go sing karaoke or anything like that. It's just not my style. I'm more in the background. But because of the nature of the work that you and I both do, we have both had to develop a certain level of executive presence so that we can be heard. What would you say... on your website, it lists 10 components of executive presence. And I'm not going to name them all, but what I'm going to ask you is, which of these do you find your clients most often need to work on?
Communication is one. And with communication, it's not just the verbal and the nonverbal communication. It's also the listening. And I recently had a conversation actually with two other people who are communication specialists. And we all agree that even though we all think we're great listeners, we're not. Because we think about the next question. We think about a comment. We draw conclusions, make assumptions, all while we're listening to somebody else talk. So we're not fully in the moment while that person is actually speaking. And for executive presence and for the ability to really communicate well, that is absolutely crucial. The ability to really listen and focus your own attention on somebody else. Yeah. Basically giving them the feeling that nothing else is more important than they are at this moment in time.
And that's effort. And yeah, I'm not always great at it. You know, it depends. Although people have told me that I'm a really good listener. Now that I think that's an advantage introverts have because we, yeah, we process things a little bit in a different way and therefore give other people more room and space to express themselves. Yeah. But again, it's a skill that needs practicing. And for me, that is absolutely important in order to make that impact, to make others feel important and heard. The listening is crucial. And then, obviously, all the other types of communication skills fall in there. So communication as a whole is one of the most crucial building blocks, so to speak, for executive presence.
That really resonates with me. I think in my travels as a coach, I find that that is probably one of the things that I spend the most time on with people. And like you, you know, I'm not perfect all the time. In fact, even during this interview, I have to, I don't know about you, but when I'm talking to someone, I have to force myself to pay attention, to really devote all of my senses to what I'm hearing and tune out any other noise that's going on in my head. It's a hard thing to do to be really present and in the moment.
Yeah. Because our society today has made it very hard to do so because there's so many distractions around us. My phone is beeping here right on the desk. I should have put it away or silenced it or something before this call, but I didn't. There's every opportunity to be distracted and to think about something else. And so to really be present, you have to be so intentional about it, to do so. So what are some tips that you give your clients on developing that capacity to be present?
It's... well, first of all, I advise them not to be impatient and crucifying themselves because they can't do it for, I don't know, pick a number, 10 minutes, longer than 10 minutes. Yeah. So not being discouraged quickly. That's one of the first things I would advise somebody. And then another thing somebody can do is almost repeating word by word what the other person has said in their own head. Because that helps tuning out any white noise from your own head, right? Because you, the minute you start repeating the words from somebody else, you don't develop your own thoughts. You don't think about the next question. Right. So that can be a good trick and just keep, keep doing it. You will, you know, you, people will stumble, you will lose it, but it's the thing of, keep practicing it.
And also, or another thing is to repeat back what a person has said to make sure that you fully understood what that individual was saying. That also helps you to really be present and follow the conversation because you know that you're going to feed the key points back to them.
Yeah. That's right. That is a good trick. I use it all the time, either by mirroring what they say or paraphrasing what they say and ask for validation. Did I get it right? Did I hear you right? Did I miss anything? I think that's a really key skill in developing the ability to listen right as to if you're really listening then uh test it and see how close you got to what the what the person said.
Yeah. The another thing... so I mean everybody is different right, but there are some individuals who know themselves of jumping ahead quite quickly with their own thinking, right? Almost cutting somebody off because something popped in their head and they're quick to jump in with a comment, with an assumption or another question, which then derails the conversation. So knowing yourself obviously is quite important and what are your own triggers, but there's a question one can ask oneself if one is that type of person. And it's how important is what I'm going to say and how much value will I add right now? So just asking yourself. And do I have to be the person asking the question?
Interesting. Just by reflecting on this.
Yeah, that can also help.
Yeah, that's another thing that really resonates with me. I think early in my career, I would be, you know, quick to want to say something just because I felt at the time, if I didn't, then people would think that I wasn't present or I wasn't there or I wasn't, you know, participating or whatever it was I was thinking at the time. And I, you know, I probably didn't say anything profound. It didn't add value to the conversation and probably interrupted the flow of thought that the group was having. And so that's, I think, a skill also that you can learn over time. It's not easy though.
No, no. But hey, what in life is easy, right? I mean, when we learned to walk, it wasn't really easy for us either. But it took a year and a half and then we got it.
You know in our last conversation, when we talked earlier, you mentioned, my we were talking about mindset shifts in companies like culture shifts, you know, the thinking within an organization and how difficult that is and how long and painstaking a process that is to, to, to not implement so much to just get to where you want to go, right? As an organization, as a leader in an organization, you want to shift the mindset, if you will, from being more reactive to more proactive, whatever it might be, from being more fixed mindset to more growth-oriented, whatever it might be, right? So what would you say... I mean, I know what you're going to say. We've kind of talked about it, but it seems to me that executive presence has a big part to play in this because it's not just about I'm the big bad leader or big good leader and I've got this great presence and people listen to me and they value me. From what you've said, it's a lot more than that. It's the ability to sit back and listen. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on how executive presence can impact what company leaders are want to do in terms of transforming their company to be more, more growth oriented.
That's actually a really tricky question. How can executive presence help change the culture in an organization? Probably on various levels, because obviously part of executive presence is the ability to communicate well. And having a vision, being able to communicate the vision, creating environments where others really can flourish. So it has a lot to do with one's mindset. And I believe there is a... Well, if I say there's a saying in German, which I translate word by word, it would say the fish always stinks from the head. I think there's something similar in the English language. So you do have to change, start with a change at the top of the organization or at the top of the department. If it's, you know, if we're talking in different departments, when an organization is big enough. So if you do want to create a change, it usually should start from the top because those are the individuals who can usually have the greatest influence. And if they develop a certain type of mindset, that usually trickles down into the various different layers of the organization, which is why it's so important to start working with those individuals because they do have the type of influence in that organization to really make that shift. Does that answer your question?
Yeah, it does. It makes a lot of sense, too, that, you know, if you want to change, if you want to implement any kind of strict change strategy, it has to be supported by leadership, obviously, because they're the ones that are the most that presumably they're the ones that have asked for this change. And so the reason I ask is because I've been involved in so many change efforts, usually in companies attempting to change by implementing agile and lean methods to how they work so that it can be more proactive in responding to market changes, to being more competitive and things like that. And they don't always participate in the activities of change. you know, while they may or may not have executive presence, they're certainly not communicating the vision as forcefully or as effectively as they could. And so that has a negative impact on the ability to change or the speed at which an organization can change, right? Because again, not everyone's pulling in the same direction. And so it really does need to start at the top or the, the, what was it? The fish stinks from the head down or from the head first.
Yeah. I, yeah, I'm trying to think what the, um, equivalent expression in English is. Uh, I just, it's just, it's gone.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. All I can think of is, uh, I won't say the, uh, the S word, but the crap always flows downhill or something like that. I don't know.
Yeah, that too. Yeah. But, but think about it. So if, if, uh, if a change is going to be introduced into an organization, and whilst everybody knows, yeah, this is coming from leadership. If they don't know what it's for, hence they don't have any idea what leadership wants to achieve with that kind of change. How successful or how motivated is everybody going to be in order to really go down the path of that cultural change? How much of a buy-in everybody will actually have other than obviously the forced one and the things they need to do, but the actual heartfelt one where they do want that change? A certain type of transparency is needed. And if that is not communicated well, and for that transparency, you know, it includes the vision. Why are we doing this? Why is this change so important? What's the end game we're trying to achieve? What's not going well right now? What leads to the changes we want to implement? If the person or the people at the top don't have the ability to really communicate this clearly and create an environment where even critical voices can be heard. Any kind of cultural shift or any change is doomed, really. There's no chance of it being successful.
Really, I feel like I learned something today. Whenever I think of the term executive presence or gravitas or whatever, I just think of one facet of it. That is how others perceive you. It's much more than that. It's more about how you as a leader cultivate others and how you listen to them and how authentic you are in the workplace. And it's really being a well-rounded leader, being a well-rounded individual that is always looking to cultivate others, bring others up, serve them. And that's how you build that gravitas, that presence. Would you agree?
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. There's another phrase people would describe it. It's the sweet point between the ability of leading yourself and leading others successfully. Yeah. Because only if you lead yourself, you can lead others. So that involves a really good chunk of self-awareness, yeah, but also how you perceive where do you sit in your environment and then being able to also manage your own well-being and stress levels because when everything is good we can be great leaders. Great leaders are great leaders when things go wrong, that's usually when the worst in us shows up, when stress and pressure increases. And that's when the more kind of ugly characteristics kind of show up. And if you have the ability to lead yourself and if you have a lot of executive presence, then you're also able to really successfully manage those stress levels and still be present and still encourage others and still create an environment where people can speak up, where they feel motivated, where they feel heard, where there is psychological safety.
Yeah, that's fantastic. So, Inga, what have I not asked you that you'd like to share?
Oh, yes, actually, you and I are similar in terms of sharing our, well, the little bit of wisdom we've acquired. So I also started out in a podcasting adventure and I'm always looking for interesting guests. So my podcast is called Professionals Unplugged, so I usually get together with other professionals and we talk about work, anything related to the work field, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the funny, and those are the kind of conversations where actually I fully enjoy because there's so many times when I've learned something new and just different perspectives. And I thoroughly enjoy that. And hopefully there are also nuggets in there for other people to find. It's like, hang on a minute. That's interesting. I haven't heard that before. I want to know more. So, yeah, that's... Love to have you on it. And if you think about somebody else who could enjoy this kind of conversation with me and others, yeah, I'd be very grateful if you share the link or share the information.
Yeah, definitely. We'll share it in the show notes, how they can view your podcast or listen to it and book a session with you. And I would love to be on the show. That sounds really fun, just to talk or chat about work and all the good and bad about work and how we can make work better and more fulfilling, more rewarding, more and more, all of those things, all the mores. Because we spend so much of our time, of our lives at work.
Oh, yeah. We should not be stuck in a place where we're not having fun. We're not growing. We're not developing ourselves, developing others. Yeah. If you're in that kind of a position, then get out and do something else.
Yeah, sometimes it's easier said than done, but it's not impossible. And I agree. I made a few changes career-wise in my life because I found myself in a position where I just thought, this is not fun anymore. Why am I doing this?
Right. Yeah, I've made lots of transitions in my career. And this podcast really is all about disruption, innovation, you know, in a way that the things that you do help disrupt the lives of these leaders, you know, or people that are trying to improve their leadership skills. And it has a huge impact because leaders have such influence over the people that they lead that it can't but lead to disruption in a good way, right? So thank you so much for being on this show.
Thank you. I'd love to appear on yours in the future.
Love to have you. That's great. Hope you all enjoyed this broadcast. And if you want to get a hold of Inga, the notes, show notes are down below. She's, I'm sure, everywhere on social media. Look her up on our website and improve your executive presence now that you know what that means. See you all later, next time.
