ļ»æTranscript: "Robots Do Tasks, Humans Create Meaning: Reimagining the Future of Work" with Nader Safinya
Kumar: Hi, everyone. Kumar Dattatreyan here with the Meridian Point. Today, I'm really pleased to welcome a guest to the stage here in a few minutes. His name is Nader Safinya, the founder of Black Ribbit, the culture branding agency. I really want to find out what that means, culture branding. And him being the culture branding guy, I need some culture branding myself. Anyway, with over fifteen years leading and developing full-scale brands, Nader helps companies transform into what he calls culture brands, organizations that put quality of life first while emerging as symbols of progress. This vision of changing our relationship with the workplace as a society comes at a crucial time when AI and technological disruption are reshaping how we work. This sounds like it's going to be a fascinating interview and a fascinating topic. Nader, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Let me pull you in.
Nader: Thanks, Kumar. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Kumar: Of course. So my first question is, you brand yourself as the culture branding guy. What does that mean?
Nader: So the culture branding guy actually came about after repositioning my agency as the culture branding agency. Black Ribbit was sort of a, let's call it a traditional branding agency until about eighteen months ago, and at the end of last year I officially repositioned as the culture branding agency and myself as the culture branding guy because my audience dictated as such. All the topics I was talking about, the content I was putting out there, my philosophies, my way of working, the model that I created for the company, the proprietary program and all that stuff culminated as the culture branding program. So everything is rooted in that. And I, as the runner of that show, as it were, am the culture branding guy.
Kumar: I like that. I like that. So in our prior conversation, you've described a vision of a future where humanity evolves past our current state through better workplace environments. Can you walk us through what sparked this vision and how it shapes your work with your clients?
Nader: Yes. This is a little bit of a long story. I hope that's okay.
Kumar: Of course.
Nader: So it all started with my own experience looking for work in 2021. It was actually right after the first year of Covid and I applied to something like 460 jobs in about six months. And I got one interview. I think I got maybe thirty or so rejection letters that were all clearly from bots and the rest was just crickets. And I know a lot of people share this experience. And I felt crazy. Without feedback, I just felt crazy. I felt like I was in a black hole with no mirrors, you know, trying to figure out what is this all about?
I was reading various articles. 2021 was also the year of the great resignation. So there was this big, bright, shining light on the broken system between employee and employer, that relationship that also trickled into the employee and customer relationship and so on. So I just started digging into that and trying to figure out, you know, what is that all about? And really trying to uncover where the dissatisfaction was coming from, the unhappiness was coming from, why was there so much distrust in the workplace and with job applicants and potential future workplaces and so on.
And that's sort of where all this came from. And the idea that I realized very quickly that, the thing that was creating the disconnect was that there was basically companies were lying into the market. Like what their message was saying to the market was inaccurately portraying how they were internally, how they behaved internally. So in effect, you had marketing, branding, myself included, branding agencies, marketing agencies, sales, leadership, and so on, focused primarily, if not exclusively on the customer experience and neglecting the employee experience. And you had sort of, you know, HR, coaching, change management, you know, whatever talent strategy and so on, they were all focusing on the employee experience. And these two sides never spoke. So you had and they still don't in many cases. So you had this major discrepancy between what was going on inside and what was going on outside.
So the culture branding program is all about making sure that a company's internal culture is truthfully reflected in its external branding and brand identity and messaging and so on. With the ultimate underlying objective of creating a better relationship with the workplace. So my vision became wanting to create for society to have a better relationship with the workplace and ultimately bringing cool jobs to cool people.
Kumar: I love that. I mean, I think that the experience, as you put it, the employee experience starts with the hiring process. Right. And that can be pleasant and an enriching experience. Or it can be one like you describe here in a black hole with no mirrors and no feedback. And but it extends beyond that, right. So once you're employed, it's the connection between the employee experience and the customer experience that I think makes for an enriching environment. Would you say that's the case? And that's sort of what you're trying to do here with culture branding?
Nader: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, you basically nailed it. Because with clarity, with clarity comes direction, with direction comes confidence, and with confidence comes productivity, comes progress, comes growth, and so on. So it's all very much connected. And a culture brand, a culture brand strategy, culture brand design, and so on, is rooted in creating clarity.
And I'm glad you brought up the, it starts in job application process because that's actually what sort of sparked this entire thing. And what I learned in the last year, only myself, cause I've been studying this now for nearly six to seven years. And I only just realized that, think about this. When is the last time you read a job description that actually addresses how that job will impact your quality of life? And the answer is probably never. Honestly, if you have, I would love to know where it was because I still haven't found one.
Look at the global brands that are known, actually well known for their internal cultures like Patagonia, Virgin, Salesforce, even Google, depending on which side of the fence you're on - they don't hit that mark. Read their job descriptions - the same thing, they all read like project briefs. So the point I'm trying to make is if you can lean into your philosophy as an organization claiming that you're a people-first organization from the get-go, that's going to impact how the world sees you, sees your brand.
We as strategists, as designers and so on only have the power to influence how a brand is experienced. We are not in charge of creating the brand. The brand is a gut feeling about a person, place or thing, which is created in the hearts of the audience. We don't create that. We only have the power to influence that reaction. You know, that's why they call it a brand strategy because it's a map to create experiences at different touch points anywhere along the journey of whether it's a customer or an employer ā€” anyone who has any interaction with this thing, this organization, this entity feels a certain way at every single touch point and that's true in the job description.
So make sure if you claim that you're a people-first organization, that should be evident at one of the highest touch points of your organization, which happens to be the job description. And it's ignored. It's like one of the highest touch points and it's ignored. It's crazy. And I only just learned this recently.
So to answer your question, yes, if your claim to be a people-first organization is evident in every single touch point in the way that you train, the way that you hire, the way that you onboard, the way that you speak, the way that you write, all the way through your contracts, through your job descriptions, through everything, through your visual aesthetics, and so on. Absolutely, the customer and employee relationship improves because suddenly everybody wants to be there and you're able to clearly answer why anyone would want to buy from you and why anyone would want to work for you.
Kumar: Yeah, you've raised some really good points. A viewer just commented that he or she really appreciates what you're doing. I think you saw the comment that popped up, right? And I think it's true because we don't really associate the hiring process, especially the interview, with establishing your brand in terms of the kind of brand that you want to be. And to your point, you don't really create it. You create the container that you hope will attract the type of people that are attracted to that brand strategy, but you don't create it. You sort of set the characteristics, if you will, in motion and hope that it will attract the right talent and, of course, the right customers to buy from you. And so I think it really requires that companies understand their purpose, their why, and if they can focus on that, then and really sort of hone in on their, what is it that makes them different? Why should people want to work for them? Why should people want to buy from them? That may be a good input into their brand strategy.
Nader: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, those are the fundamental questions. I feel like in our model, that's what we aim to answer. It's those two questions. Because if you can answer those two questions, then your decision-making process becomes inherently and infinitely simpler across the board. And it's actually sort of a trick question because the response is one answer. The same ā€“ we call it our culture brand statement.
So, which is ultimately "we value X, Y, and Z, and we want people to experience A, B, and C." At Black Ribbit, at my own company, it's "the reason we do anything at any point for any reason is because we value reliability, compassion, and deliberate action. And we want people to experience compassionate design." So no matter what we do, how we do it, where we do it, that's why we do it. And it always has to fit into that narrative. And that applies to both customers and employees, partners or otherwise.
The challenge with that statement is that it has to work in both cases. That's where some people... I often get the, "oh yeah, I can answer that." And I say, "okay, great, do it, let's go." And I get excited. And then I say, "okay, but this only applies to potential customers. This doesn't actually apply to potential employees." That's where it gets tricky. So if you can, the goal is to be able to answer those two questions with a single answer. And then you can really create a belief system and a behavioral system where you are really true to something that's very, that's rooted in your core as your identity.
Kumar: Those are really good points and it's hard to, I would think it would be hard to create it. It really takes nurturing to create a culture brand that is encompassing of both the customer and the employee experience, but I think that's where you, someone like you comes in, right? You help them think through those scenarios. What do they want to be when they grow up? Right.
So I was a big fan of this book by Whitney Johnson. It's called "Disrupt Yourself." I don't know if you're familiar with it.
Nader: No, I haven't read it.
Kumar: The premise of the book is that when you're hired in the company, so you've gone through the hiring process, you've made it through that black hole of no sort of feedback on your resume and whatever. Somehow you get a job, right? You're a new employee in a company and your first few months, maybe even years, are an experience of moderate to high engagement because you're growing, as long as the culture is decent, right? So it's a decent culture, you're growing. And at some point you kind of plateau, you've gotten to where you're going to get to and then people start to get disengaged. And I suppose with a good culture branding strategy, the people that lead others or people that do the work, whatever category you fall into, would have options to be able to jumpstart the next rung in their career. How closely do you think this culture branding strategy relates to employee engagement in a company?
Nader: Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, it's tied right into it. It's not a question of how close is it? It includes it. Simply because it's a people-first, human-centered model. My own background is, I'm a designer by trade. My master's is in design management and so on. So my process is design thinking, and that's what's rooted in my proprietary inside-outside-in culture branding model. And it's rooted in empathy first. Everything is about understanding who's involved in this from a human perspective. What are their needs? What are their wants? What are their desires? Who's impacted by them?
Everyone is impacted by somebody. We consider family life when we talk about culture branding. We consider what someone's home life is like, how someone's home life is impacted by the company for which they work, the culture in which they reside and so on.
And that also addresses the question that you brought up, which is career paths and growth and upskilling and reskilling and all these opportunities that exist in someone's potential future are very much included in these programs, giving people that opportunity for personal growth. It feeds into the reciprocal nature of what a culture brand is, which is about a give and take. It's understanding that there is an individual mentality within the collective and that there is a collective mentality within the individual.
Kumar: I love that. Yeah, I really like where this conversation is going. You know, in our last conversation we had before this one, you shared how spouses have called managers to thank them for creating a positive work environment. I don't know. I have worked in companies like that. I mean, my earlier experience was maybe twenty some years ago when I wasn't in business for myself. I worked in a company where that happened, where the culture was so strong that people felt compelled to call in and thank the manager, if you will. Right. Can you share a story of how your approach transformed a client's workplace where this sort of thing was the norm?
Nader: Yeah, absolutely. The gratitude call is not as regular as one might want, but the fact that it even happens is phenomenal. Basically, the relief and the clarity that comes with the model that we implement and that we instill in our clients' organizations begins right away.
So with a current client right now, it's a forty-some-odd-year-old company. So they've gone through a lot. There was a lot of past history and so on. And now there's a change of the guards. And every time we come in, every single time we come in, it's always because there's some change happening. There's some rooted change, a transformation, there are points of contention, there are conflict, whether it's managerial or otherwise, the conflict exists.
And every time we come in, we instantly feel hope. There is a hopefulness that permeates throughout the company itself because we're right off the bat interviewing and meeting with everybody. We're meeting with people across the board, not just leadership, we're talking to middle managers, we're talking to production people, we're talking to custodians, potentially security guards and so on, depending on the nature of the business.
And so, add to this, build on top of this, the programs we implement, we design and we help execute culminate into a very readily and quickly resonant workplace that just feels good. And people feel relief.
I actually recently had this conversation with my project manager and my researcher. There are certain personalities and characters who don't really care to understand what their workplace is like emotionally - they're just there to collect the paycheck and go home, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just that's how they're wired. They're not there to question it, they're not there to ruffle feathers, they're not even there to try to understand what is the purpose of this place and to get all stuck up in the branding language, and again there's nothing inherently wrong with that, that's fine.
However, they will inherently experience the change. They will emotionally experience the change when they're no longer kind of contending with an environment that is pulling them between, "I love my job, but I don't feel safe. I love my job, but there's no one to talk to if something comes up." That's a weird place to be. And humans are interesting because we'll put up with that because we love something so dearly about what we do. Maybe there's something fulfilling about it, but at the same time, we feel unsafe if something should come up.
And these are people who have, in my experience, have been at such companies for over ten years. But then when we start implementing these programs, this relief starts to happen and they're no longer fighting with this repressed sort of tolerance. They're actually able to push themselves into a more relieving kind of a progress state of mind. And whether they understand it or not, they'll feel it. And that's when what you described starts coming to light. People thanking management and thanking leadership and so on, because whether they understand it inherently or not, they feel it.
Kumar: That's a wonderful outcome and I think a testament to what you're doing. There's a question from the audience from Regina: "How do you get them to be honest? Where's the message beginning so employees know they are in a safe place to feel that relief?"
Nader: Yeah, that's a great question. It's rooted in accountability and creating processes because it's at an organizational level, right? Think of it on an individual level. How do you get yourself to be honest with yourself? You hold yourself accountable to certain, let's call it metrics that you set for yourself. If it's about like working out or dieting or working more, working less or whatever, it's the same thing, but a little bit more complicated on the organizational level in which you have to create systems and policies and protocols that actually hold accountable the leadership, the management, create zero tolerance policies for certain kinds of behavior, create check-ins, create feedback loops that have to be maintained and managed by a group of people that are put in place to actually monitor that.
And sometimes that requires really hard choices like pushing somebody out who shouldn't be there because they're responsible for a potentially toxic workplace. And that can only be realized through doing the evaluations, doing the work, doing the assessment. The last thing you want to do is attack a place, an organization with rumors and speculations and so on. They have to be proven in order to offer useful arguments that will ultimately create safe spaces and accountability protocols for people to actually be able to vent what they need to vent.
Kumar: Luis had a comment here. "It also depends on how the workplace culture is, which is what we're really talking about. And how open leadership is." I think from everything you've said so far, what you do with culture branding is amazing - create an environment of psychological safety, or at least attempt to create an environment of psychological safety so people feel safe to voice their opinions, they know what's tolerated, what their expectations are, they take accountability for their work, all those sorts of things that are important in creating a good workplace culture. Would you care to comment on that?
Nader: Yeah, absolutely. And the leadership comment is spot on. It does depend on how open the leadership is. And to be very frank, it's usually leadership that's making the decision to make the change in the first place. So whether it's them being influenced by a fellow leader or fellow exec or possibly someone influential within their circle who might not even be on the C-suite but has influence over them or otherwise, they decide that, okay, they want to do this.
And I have been met with organizations and clients in the leadership team who are like, "you know, yeah, we can take their recommendations, but it doesn't mean we have to implement them." And I mean, no matter how you slice it, that's a fact. That's not untrue. However, there's definitely a place where that's also undermining the process. It's undermining what we're talking about, what my partners are talking about, and what everyone who's feeling the negativity of such a workplace is talking about.
And that then in itself brings up possible action from the rest of the leadership team or others who are like, "well, this just doesn't work. Now we know too much and we're not going to put up with this anymore." And that's not something anyone can really force or control. It's the outcome of being able to react to the truth and that's again that's not something that I've dealt with a couple times and it's tricky because humans are still human. It's not obvious how to deal with that every time.
Kumar: Regina has a comment on that: "So oftentimes you have companies that drive a new leadership which disrupts the culture. Then it is oneself because they're not accepting new leadership, or is it leadership not inviting to that cultural model?"
So I think the gist of the question is you've got this disruption. You have a leadership team that are committed to their culture model that maybe you're trying to build, you're working with them. That team is disrupted. New people come in, and they're not quite up to snuff, if you will, on the culture. Have you run into that, and how have you dealt with it?
Nader: Yeah, loving your questions, Regina. That one's also a really good one because what that sparks for me is the fact that culture emerges regardless of whether you cultivate it or not. So there's a difference between a culture that comes out of the circumstances of an environment, and then there's the culture that you cultivate, that you actually try to build and try to mold and so on.
In the case of leadership who doesn't want to get on board with the culture, I believe what Regina's implying is the culture you're trying to cultivate. So the new culture, whereas they're probably accustomed to what they created themselves, what emerged out of the circumstances that they created within their original environment.
And for certain leaders, you know, if we go like well into the negative, they're like, "oh, this was my place. I could just tell people what to do. It didn't matter. If people mouthed off, I fired them. I just hired someone else. I paid them a lot of money so nobody complained," blah, blah, blah. That's like a pretty bad example, an example of a bad environment, which we know happens. Actually, that's pretty common.
And then now they're upset that now we have systems. Now we have policies. Now we have processes. There's a communication ladder. People can't just go to the person they want to talk to and so on. And suddenly favoritism is no longer a thing. Maybe there were other kinds of biases that are no longer a thing and it's not really working for some people and it's working for other people. And that again, it's a human problem. It's a human psychological problem.
In our case, we've set up measurement systems where we're going to leadership and essentially showing them that the new culture that we're cultivating through this new program is actually offering better results than what you had before. So if you're just stuck in the weeds of the numbers, then let us show you the numbers. We're showing it to you right now. It's already improving and it's only been six months.
Kumar: I love it. You know, in our last conversation you mentioned, speaking of metrics and numbers right, so there's the hard metrics, the quantitative stuff, right? So it's what's our bottom line, what's our top line, whatever, whatever those things are that measure the health of a company. But then there's the stuff that relates to culture, and of course the happier your workforce, the more engaged they are, then it tends to influence those bottom line metrics. And you and I talked about tears of joy as a KPI. Tell me more about that and how does that relate and how does it correlate to the hard numbers?
Nader: Thank you for asking that. Yeah, the Tears of Joy started years ago when I actually started the company. Because even when I was working for a company and I started doing brand design and brand strategy many moons ago, like fifteen years ago or something, I apparently already had that ability and I was able to sort of see and hear the words not said and see what people really needed in their gut, in their heart, but weren't able to articulate.
The first time I experienced that I was like twenty-seven. And my client, the client that I was pitching to for the account that I was working on at the company I was at, was emotional over what I delivered to her and what I pitched, literally saying, "I didn't even think that's what I wanted, what I needed" because she was giving me all these examples that had nothing to do with what I showed her at the end. I showed her versions of what she showed me and then I showed her my idea. I was like, "this is all well and good but this is actually what I saw and heard when you and I were talking."
And so this carried through with me through launching Black Ribbit and so on. And in the beginning, the reason that became a KPI was because that's when I knew that I had hit something real or my team had hit something real. It's not that we were trying to make people cry. It's that they were so overwhelmed with relief and clarity and this sort of, "I didn't even know that's what I wanted." I've heard this many, many times: "I've never felt so heard in my life."
To be able to hear that in the context of business is a beautiful thing. And it's also like, I'm also thinking, you know, I'm so happy that I could be that for you. I'm so happy that we could be that for you, because if you're claiming that you've never been that heard in your entire life, that's pretty profound.
And using that as a KPI means that we're basically leaning into the emotive, the very powerful emotive side of what it means to create a culture brand and using that to determine behaviors, to encourage behaviors, to encourage new models, new systems, new attitudes that ultimately result in better numbers, actual numbers.
Kumar: Well, with your background in design thinking, I would say that, well, the first step in design thinking is to empathize. And you seem to have that gift to be able to see the world through somebody else's eyes really well. And even to the point where you can hear the things that they're not saying, right? So whatever they're saying is wrong, you're going beyond that and you're seeing beyond what they're saying to what they really are meaning, and being able to create an outcome that they didn't know they needed, but they absolutely want, which is really a testament to you and your company. So kudos.
Nader: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I love my team. My team is awesome. And we're just kind of rooted in that. Even when my team has experienced that for their first time, it's an amazing moment as well.
Kumar: That's awesome. Well, I have one last question and maybe a couple of fun questions. And the last question is, what's a simple change any company can implement tomorrow that would significantly improve their workplace culture?
Nader: A simple change is tricky, but a simple exercise is really just turn those questions. Why would somebody want to work for you? And why would somebody want to buy from you on yourself? Say, would you want to work for you? And do it in a very awkward sort of personal way and do it in the mirror. I'm telling you, it changes everything. Look at yourself in your eyes and ask yourself while pointing at you, would you buy from you? Would you want to work for you?
It can be a change. It's an exercise, but it's a change in mindset because it'll instantly put you in a place of self-reflection. No pun intended. And just really dig deep and no matter what your answer is. And if your answer is yes, then dig into that. Why would somebody work for you in your opinion? Why would you work for you? Right. Because that in itself is an interesting answer. If you say yes, that means you either know something or you're very confident in yourself. And that could both be good or problematic. So, yeah, just ask. It's an exercise in self-awareness.
Kumar: And it's, you know, for the people that are self-aware and yet confident, that's a good thing. But if you're not self-aware and you're just confident, then that's just arrogance, right? You're probably not seeing something in yourself that you should, and where others are.
Nader: That's right. Exactly. Yeah. It's a good little mind reset.
Kumar: Yeah. I love that. That is a simple exercise. It can be disconcerting, I would think, for some right to look in the mirror and ask themselves this question but I can see - I'm going to try it right after this call.
Nader: Yeah, like make eye contact with yourself. It's weird.
Kumar: I'm definitely going to do it. All right, last question, then I'll turn it over to you to see if you have anything you'd like to add. These are the fun ones. What do I want to ask you? I want to pick one that's the most fun. Oh, here's one. If your life had a brand tagline, what would it be?
Nader: Oh, God. If my life had a brand tag... It's probably... Man, I don't know. Similar to Nike's, like, "Don't stop," probably.
Kumar: I love that. I love that. All right. One more fun question. So what's the most important lesson - I understand you're a snowboarder. So what's the most important lesson from the slopes that you've applied to your business life?
Nader: Oh, see, that's interesting. It ties into the tagline. And by the way, anyone who's listening, I didn't know he was going to ask me that question. So I'm not prepared for that.
The thing that I learned about with snowboarding the most, Kumar, honestly, is you have to invest up front to succeed later. Like that's what it is. You got to put in the work on the front end so you can coast later. And in snowboard terms, literally cruise later so that you're not thinking while you're on the mountain going down a vertical cliff or something like that.
Like I ski, I go in the back country. I go through trees. I sometimes hit like in bad weather, I'll go down straight up ice and things like that. And if you're thinking in those moments, you're going to get hurt really badly because there's no time to think there. You're just going too fast and there's too many things happening.
But the reason that you're able to deal with those things is because you did the work up front. You practiced, you fell, you went on less complicated terrains and so on. And you kept building and building and building until you're able to just go. And you're doing it with no fear. And you're not stopping. You're not stopping. You're just going. The second you're like, "oh my God, I should stop," you'll just bail. So it's sort of the same in business. Invest up front, coast later.
Kumar: I love the analogy. Put the work in, right? So when building your culture, building your brand, culture brand, it's about putting the work in up front, right? It doesn't happen overnight. You've got to invest in it. You've got to cultivate it. You've got to be intentional about it.
Nader: Yeah, and then your brand will do the heavy lifting. It will do so much for you if you nurture it.
Kumar: I love it. Any final thoughts? Anything I didn't ask you you'd like to talk about?
Nader: No, I mean I think we covered everything. I just think, look, at the end of the day in today's business landscape, culture branding is not a choice anymore. In the way that the world is going, the way that generations are changing, our social mindset is changing, the way technology is evolving - it's a turning point for human evolution.
Culture branding is a way to sort of mitigate the threats that are coming from AI, the threats that are coming from complacency, the threats that are coming from overuse of social media and so on, and really creating an opportunity for humans to just be better at being humans again. And really leaning into what makes us different and what makes us special as a species on this planet, which is really to question meaning - our ability to question meaning. And we spend most of our time in the workplace and that's why I believe the workplace is a catalyst for that kind of change. And culture branding is at the root of that change.
Kumar: I love that. Thank you for covering that. That's the one question I didn't ask you. And it's almost like obligatory at this point that there has to be a question about AI in any interview. I didn't ask that, so I'm glad you brought it up. And it's actually in our title, right? "Robots do tasks, humans create meaning." That's right. And that's what you just covered. Robots, AI, you can use it to automate the mundane stuff and leave the higher thinking, the more important stuff to the humans to do that type of work.
Well, thank you so much for being here, Nader. It was really a pleasure talking to you.
Nader: The pleasure was all mine, Kumar. Thanks so much, man. I really appreciate you inviting me.
Kumar: Yeah, you're welcome. And for anyone that's interested in working with Nader, reach out to him. I'll have his information in the show notes later on the podcast and on the various channels. Reach out to Nader. He's here on LinkedIn, of course. And all the other channels will be made available. So thanks again for watching and see you next time. Bye-bye, all.
