Meridian Point Podcast - Educational Innovation Through Relationship Systems Coaching
Guest: Ravneet Kaur
Host: Kumar Dattatreyan
Kumar: Hi, everyone. Kumar Dattatreyan here with the Meridian Point. Today we're joined by Ravneet Kaur, a leadership coach with over twenty years of experience spanning industries, technology, telecommunications and more. With certifications as an ICF PCC, co-active coach and organization relations systems coach, Ravneet has evolved from her roots as a software developer to becoming a faculty member with CRR Global, where she trains the next generation of coaches.
What makes our conversation particularly exciting is that Ravneet's passion is a project focused on bringing conflict management and team collaboration skills to school environments. Through her Harmonizing the Classroom workshop and broader educational initiative, she's addressing the critical gap between academic instruction and the interpersonal skills students need to thrive. Drawing from her unique perspective as both a parent and a relationship systems coach, Ravneet is working to transform how schools approach teamwork, conflict resolution, and collaboration.
You, as well as everybody that's listening to this, know how important those things are in the workplace today. So without further ado, let me bring Ravneet on the stage. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ravneet.
Ravneet: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Kumar: Of course. All right. So your Harmonizing the Classroom workshop addresses a fundamental gap in our educational system. I mean, I remember going to school and teachers didn't have time or really the skill to teach us how to be team players or resolve conflict amongst ourselves when there was conflict. What specific observations or experience led you to recognize that students weren't being adequately prepared with collaboration and conflict resolution skills?
Ravneet: Yeah, so Kumar, during my earlier coaching work with students and educators, I noticed that there's a recurring pattern where students are being placed in group projects. And before I say that, you know, teaching has been slightly different nowadays. In our times, in old times, as you talked about, it was more like we were sitting on our desks and then there's a teacher standing and she's just, you know, kind of downloading information onto us. But nowadays, students work in projects, students work in groups, and they are assigned, given an assignment, and they work together on that assignment.
So looking at it from that perspective, you know, students are being placed in the group projects, however, they are not being provided any prior guidance on how to collaborate in those projects. So you may end up finding people dominating in the groups. And let's say if there is one person or two people or three people dominating the group, it leads to frustration among those students. And then it leads to resentment and effectively neither the project gets done properly and the children are not happy being together.
So it is important to give guidance on how to collaborate and how to work together as a team. What I have seen is after talking to these students and teachers that there is no prior guidance for that. It is expected that these interpersonal skills are kind of innate, which is not really true. And at times I've heard teachers saying, "Okay, you know, like you're putting the room together and go figure it out yourself. How are you going to work?" And that doesn't work.
Kumar: That's so true. Yeah. So that group, you know, that gap in this group projects that I saw made me realize that in corporate, as you also know, there are so many different techniques that we are taught and I was sad to see why these skills are not explicitly taught in the schools because if they are taught in the schools probably we won't need them to be taught in the corporate. People will already know that and they'll already be prepared for those skills.
That's a really good point that in the corporate world, people come ill-equipped out of college, out of their schooling, ill-equipped with the type of collaboration. So it's not all of them. There are some that have had a good experience in school or in college or whatever because the teacher took special care to develop those types of skills in his or her classroom, but it's not something that is universally taught.
And so you end up in a corporate environment where the workers are not really equipped to work in teams, and the culture may not support it anyway. But also in the corporate world, you have lots of training and coaching that's available that helps leaders and doers work better together - conflict resolution trainings, leadership training and facilitation training and so on and so forth. So I guess that's sort of what you're hoping for here in the classroom, right, is to provide that type of education.
Ravneet: Right. So you are right in the point that some teachers and some students and some people working in the corporates are kind of gifted with that kind of skills, but not everybody is. And so leaving it to chance is not a good idea. So instead of leaving it to chance, we want to bring these skills proactively so that it's not only one or two or three people who are good at that, but there is a skill, you know, that is everybody.
Kumar: Yeah. It's a repeatable pattern that teachers can employ to help their students do better in school. At the end of the day, it's about education, right. And their ability to learn and learn on their own and learn with others. And so I think that's a huge gap that I hope this workshop addresses.
You mentioned in our prior conversation that these interpersonal skills need to be learned and practiced rather than them being innate abilities, as you mentioned earlier. How does your approach differ from traditional methods that teachers may employ that either work or don't work?
Ravneet: Yeah, as I mentioned, traditional classroom management is, as you just mentioned, more about teacher standing in front and teaching the students. And also, you know, it falls back on the teachers to kind of control the students and manage the students and considering everything that needs to be considered for the students.
What we are saying over here by the means of these workshops and later on, you know, different programs that we are looking forward to develop is instead of the teacher saying, "Oh, how do I manage the students?" it's about "How can I empower the students to manage among themselves?"
So these are these shared spaces where these students can take that responsibility. So it's by the means of systems coaching, emotional intelligence, and social neuroscience that we want to bring the capability of navigating conflict, giving and taking feedback, and co-creating solutions together, bringing these capabilities to the students directly. So it's really not about that we need to correct their behaviors. It's about we need to build this capacity in the students.
Kumar: Yeah, I love that. You end up with much better, well-rounded students, not just with the academic knowledge, but also emotional intelligence, the ability to deal better with other humans that they're going to be interacting with in the workplace and throughout their lives, really. I wish I'd had that, you know, to learn when I've gone into the workforce, these skills over the course of, I don't know, five, ten years, how to be an effective team member, for instance, or collaborator or, you know, just working with other people in general. It's a skill that's a learned skill. I mean, some people have it naturally, but I think even those people that have it naturally can learn from specific coaching and education on how to hone their craft, if you will.
Ravneet: Right, right.
Kumar: So your workshop, you invite not just educators, but also parents and students to participate. What have you observed when you have this sort of a mixed attendees between educators, students, parents, and others?
Ravneet: Yeah, so one word I would say that I observed was empathy. You know, even when we all work in this education system together, I have seen students, parents, teachers more or less work in silos. And when I say that what I mean is it's hard for each one of them to understand where the other person is coming from or what the expectations or perspectives of the other side would be. So students lacking that for parents or teachers and parents for students and teachers and so on. So bringing them together on the same platform actually helped us to see or to enable them to see each other, which they have been missing so far.
Kumar: Yeah, that must've been powerful. Did you say that the insights were more revealing for parents, for teachers or students, or was it sort of all of the above?
Ravneet: I would say all of the above because it was just a different insight for each one of them.
Kumar: Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And what were the outcomes from those insights? How did you, or have you thought about how to incorporate those into future workshops?
Ravneet: So, you know, like one of the students said, we were talking about these projects and as he said, "If I would know why this other person in my team is asking for a different topic, I would have addressed that in a different way. I would have maybe talked to that in a different way." Now, as the student said that a teacher in the class was hearing it and she got an "aha" moment seeing that as like, "I never thought about that."
Kumar: Yeah. So brilliant.
Ravneet: Yeah. So that was one of the examples, and we had many, many such insights in the workshop.
Kumar: Yeah, that's fantastic. You know, you have yourself bridged many different disciplines throughout your career. You started out as a software developer and you're now into more leadership coaching, you know, through the relationship system coaching discipline. You're a PCC. How did all of these experiences shape your approach to disrupting traditional educational models?
Ravneet: Yeah. You know, if I talk about software engineering, it really taught me how to work collaboratively because there's no way that you can develop a software individually. We always worked in teams. It taught me collaboration. It taught me systems thinking, you know, how to look at it from a bigger perspective from a top level.
On the other hand, coaching, it taught me empathy. It taught me relational intelligence. It taught me how to actively listen and ask powerful, open-ended questions to make people think, to help them grow. And I think today our education needs both.
Today, if you go back to the students, and if you think about teaching them only maths and science, or I mean, other subjects as well, from a content perspective, they have lots of information on the internet. And they can just learn all of that themselves. What they need today is more of this relational intelligence that I have mentioned. That's what they need the teachers for. That's what they need their parents for, or I would say even school leadership and school counselors. That's where they need help or that's where they need guidance to help them grow.
I'm not saying that they don't need to understand the content, but a lot of content they can actually get from different means. There's a huge amount of data and information present today. But this, teaching them empathy, teaching them how to be together, teaching them how to collaborate, and how to overcome working in silos. This is what they need today. And this is what I have learned throughout. So that interdisciplinary perspective is very, very important today because, you know, we need interdisciplinary thinkers today. And so we need to model that.
Kumar: Yeah. I totally agree with you. Our society is becoming more and more fractured and more and more polarized. And educating kids from a young age to have empathy and to be able to resolve conflict in a meaningful and productive manner is a skill that we need more of, not less of.
Ravneet: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
Kumar: Yeah. So that's great that you're embarking on this ambitious project. You've noted in our prior conversations that teachers themselves often need coaching before they can effectively guide students through teamwork challenges. What have you learned about, and actually, before you answer that question, it would be good if you would explain to the audience, what is relations systems intelligence?
Ravneet: Yeah, so that may sound like a big word, but it's as simple as saying we are always in relationship. It could be a student-teacher relationship. It could be a student-student relationship. And how do we navigate through those relationships? For instance, take an example of resolving conflicts. How do I navigate through that conflict with my peer, with somebody who's working with me in a group? How do I give and take feedback from this person? How do I grow this person? How do I empathize with this person?
So relationship systems is not only about me as an individual but who are we together. And how do we work together? So having intelligence about that is what we call as relational intelligence.
Kumar: So that'll make this next question more appropriate, right? So teachers, as I mentioned, they may need coaching themselves before they can effectively guide the classroom. How does relationship systems intelligence, or how would you apply that to the teacher's sort of tool bag, if you will, to help them in the classroom?
Ravneet: Yeah. You know, this is something that we actually realized while we were going through this workshop. Teachers are overwhelmed today. They have a lot to do. They are considered to be content experts. They are considered to emotionally support students when needed. And they're also required to manage the classrooms and manage students, of course. And all of this without having an adequate training in facilitation and relational dynamics.
You know, just now I told you about a teacher telling the students, "Okay, you know, I'm going to create these projects and these project groups and go figure it out yourself how you work together." When she said that, I could imagine probably she herself was not given adequate training or a facilitation of these groups or helping them to navigate through these challenges that they may face in the groups. So bringing that to the teachers first themselves is an important task.
And now, yeah. Go ahead, please. So that is one part of it. So how can we empower them to bring that to their classrooms? At the same time, as you mentioned, they need coaching themselves. Because as I mentioned, they're overwhelmed themselves. There's I mean, I feel sad about, you know, saying this, but there are also challenges, financial challenges that we are seeing in our education system today, which falls back on teachers.
Kumar: Yeah. So given that those kind of challenges we put on them, another thing that, hey, go and coach the children, that's going to be too much for them. So how do you see your workshop helping teachers be more effective with their students? Or is it just going to be another thing that they have to sort of worry about or try to learn?
Ravneet: Yeah. So, you know, when I started coaching, learning coaching myself, that brought a lot of changes in myself. You know, if I would be teaching empathy to my students, I kind of ended up learning a lot of that myself. And that's what I try to bring to the teachers. As they will think about growing the students, believe me, the first step to it is growing them, growing themselves.
Kumar: I love that answer. Yeah. As you become active listener, you develop that patience. Yeah, I totally agree. That completely resonates with me and my experience. As I, like you, I'm a facilitator, I'm an educator, but not in the classroom, certainly, but, you know, corporate educator. And I find that every class that I teach, I learn something more about myself, not just about the people in the room, but I learn something more about me or how I can be better as an educator, facilitator.
And so I love your answer in that if teachers were given, not given, but empowered really with these skills, coaching skills, relationship intelligence building skills, empathy, you know, having empathy for students' needs and so on, it's going to make them better educators. And it just becomes part of their persona, if you will. They don't have to think about it so much, right? Just like you and I, we go about our work with our clients, helping them through our coaching, through our facilitation. It's not like we're, it doesn't seem like an additional burden on you, or at least from my perspective, it's not. It's just a capability now that we have, that we employ in our everyday actions as we go through our workday.
Ravneet: Right. So, you know, as we talk about the teachers, and as I mentioned, since they're already overwhelmed, it's not about adding one more thing, as you said. So I do see other programs, some of them, add additional one-on-one coaching with the students. So that's really an additional thing, I would say, that have a regular one-on-one coaching with students. The teachers are asked to do that. Now, that will bring an additional task for them. What we are saying over here is that your teaching becomes coaching-like.
Kumar: Yes.
Ravneet: Yeah, so develop that capability within your teaching rather than just treating coaching as a separate thing.
Kumar: Yeah, you know now that you mentioned students I'm curious about your stance on sort of peer coaching, students coaching other students.
Ravneet: Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because this program that we are developing today and we are working actively with universities to partner on that program, the next step to it is actually peer coaching. Because we do want to enable teachers to empower the students but then what is there for the students? You know, once they become capable of that they may be able to develop peers. And I believe with all these programs it would rather take the burden away from the educators and not add to it.
Kumar: Yeah, no that's fantastic. I certainly think that it would be a huge benefit for teachers to have these types of capabilities at their disposal, but more than that, the beneficiaries are going to be those students, those kids that get out of middle school, high school, and this is a question that's forming in my mind because I think the approach is going to have to be different depending on the age of the child. And even in universities and colleges, my experience in college is very regimented. You take your classes, you go one classroom to another. The hundred level courses were in these huge classrooms with two or three hundred students. There's no way that educator is going to have any kind of relationship with three hundred people in a classroom. So I'm getting to my question. Well, the first part would be, how would this approach be different depending on the age of the child in school? And is there a place for this in universities?
Ravneet: Yeah, so let me answer your first question. Depending on the age, yes, we need empathy at every age. But nevertheless, we divide this program from the perspective of into three parts from the perspective of high school students, middle school students, and elementary students. And as teachers, since you may be teaching one of these groups of students, there will be different exercises and tools that may help you to bring that.
So the basic principles remain the same. You want collaboration at all levels. You want teamwork at all levels, and you want empathy at all levels. And maybe also developing giving and taking feedback for. So I'm just taking a few examples. But it may be just different for the elementary school. It may be, so for example, if I have to develop leadership for the elementary students, I might develop something like a leader of the day. And then ask this leader of the day, you know, have one student assigned every day who's leader of the day. And this student is assigned to take care of creating the lines, students standing properly in the lines and, you know, singing whatever songs they are singing, doing the prayers. So, you know, that gives them kind of feeling of that responsibility of being the leader for that day. Change it next day. So that way they develop this capability. This is just one example.
Now leadership will look very, very different for a high school student. So that may look like maybe facilitating a group discussion. So, you know, so that ways we will, so we still talking about leadership in both sides. However, the tools may change.
Kumar: Yeah, and the way we implement it would be different because kids are you know different development stages in their in their maturation process you know a seven-year-old six-year-old in elementary school is not going to be have the same level of thinking and empathy as a high school kid right and so it has to be geared to the age level that you're teaching.
That makes a lot of sense. And I suppose as you get older, you can start to incorporate or introduce more of that servant leadership mindset into older kids because they will now get it. They will be able to practice it and become better leaders in their adulthood. So what about college? Sorry, what about college? Yeah, we covered K through twelve. What about the universities? Is there an applicability for this for university professors?
Ravneet: Oh, that's a good question. And we're still exploring that part. The focus is right now on a lot on the schools. And but I totally agree that that may be something that we will look into as we develop further courses.
Kumar: I suppose it depends on the university and summer. But it just seems that model is very factory oriented. I mean, school K through twelve is as well. But universities are even more so it feels like.
Ravneet: Yeah I mean again if we start you know developing students at that level of schools and probably they'll already be very well by the time they they reach the college they would have developed those skills already and it now it will be just developing further you know developing advanced skills maybe but I as I I'm I'm wondering if there's a sort of a sharp contrast between their experience in school where it was collaborative worked in groups and, you know, you had an opportunity to, to develop those relationships as you mentioned, and you get into college and now you're in a three hundred classroom class, a three hundred person classroom and no real ability to form those types of relationships.
Oh, that is so true. That is so true. And, you know, a basic difference that we see as students move from school to college. I mean, my son has just passed high school and he's going to college. And the basic difference that I see is the amount of freedom that you get. The amount of freedom, the amount of responsibility. You make your decisions, right? And what we are saying over here is we are trying to develop that at the school level itself. In a very, very guarded place, we still want the students to make those decisions. So building that capacity so that going to college is not a shock for them, which is today in a lot of cases. I do not know the statistics, but I have seen a lot of students not able to cope up as they move on to college.
Kumar: Yeah. Well, I mean, my kids. It's like a shock to them. Right. Both my kids were, the first year was a shock, you know, where you had this more nurturing, I suppose, in comparison environment in school and this experience in college was totally different. You're on your own. You have a lot of freedom, but you've got to figure a lot of things out. I see where you're getting at. If you can develop the types of skills that people need as they enter adulthood, and I would say college is sort of your first foray into adulthood. You're on your own. You've got to figure things out on your own. You've got to figure out how to prioritize what to study for when, the friends you keep, the relationships you build, and all of that, that this education that you receive in K through twelve should prepare you for that.
Ravneet: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And that's the idea, to prepare you for that and then further, you know, for the corporate, for your work. So that's really the idea.
Kumar: Right. So, you know, in a current climate, the current administration with education funding being severely cut or really the Department of Education being eliminated. I know. Yeah. Where do you see something like this or how do you see something like this gaining traction?
Ravneet: It's gaining traction slowly, I would say. And you're right, you know, with the current administration, we are really finding it hard to get the funding. What we are trying to do at center for education, coaching in education is we are trying to partner with universities, and it may be private universities. And we are starting this program, which is professional certification for coaching and education, and helping universities introduce this certification course as part of their curriculums. The students can take these certifications like electives when they are educating themselves like at a graduate level or an undergraduate level so that they can develop these skills when they are learning to teach or when they are getting their certifications or their degrees.
So that's one way that we are trying to get to. Other places that we are trying to connect with are the schools themselves. And it could be charter schools, private schools. So getting help from them.
Kumar: I'm thinking homeschooling communities could also benefit greatly from this.
Ravneet: Homeschools, yes. So those as well. Because they're already, you know, the parents are quite involved in educating their kids and they team up together maybe to create a charter school or just to team up with other parents to provide a rich environment for their kids. And that may be a place where this could be put to good use.
And so, so yeah, we are looking to work with homeschools as well. And also we are looking to start it as a standalone program, which is, you know, working with ICF certifications. So to get an affiliation from them, will help us to run this program as, you know, like you can do this certification for your PCC or ACC. That will help you to have a certification in ACC and PCC, having that credential. And, you know, so as a teacher, you can show that I have that coaching capability that will just turn into your resume, you know, as you apply for different positions. And so that's an additional skill that you can demonstrate.
Kumar: Yeah, that's beautiful. That's something additional we want to do. Yeah, I love that. I love that idea to sort of associate the... brings more credibility to the certification as well, because it's been accredited by ICF for co-active coaching or whatever, whatever the institution might be. And it's part of a sort of a curriculum in a university where you get the certification to help you, maybe some credits or something like that. I don't know. Seems like a really good way to go.
All right. We're getting towards the end of our time. And I want to just ask you some fun questions to probe into your background a little bit. What's one skill you wish you learned in school that would have made your early career easier?
Ravneet: Oh, okay. What skill? Well, I would say how to have hard conversations, crucial conversations, without really becoming defensive.
Kumar: Ah, okay. So you were, you were probably like most people, you know, you kind of shied away from conflicts.
Ravneet: I learned it now. I know it now, but, but like you're saying at that time, it would have been much beneficial, you know, and I would have learned much faster if that was.
Kumar: Okay. Favorite beverage, coffee, tea, or something else?
Ravneet: Coffee.
Kumar: Coffee. Okay. Very good. Well, I was a software engineer. What else can you expect?
Good point. My early career was in restaurants and I used to run restaurants and I don't know how many half full cups of coffee you would find around the restaurant because I'd fill it, drink some, leave it, forget about it. It got cold, get another one. Yeah, coffee for sure for me.
What's the most surprising thing you've learned from working with teenagers on conflict resolution?
Ravneet: You know, teenagers today want authenticity and transparency and honest communication. Don't think about hiding things or putting things under the carpet. Just bring it up.
Kumar: Okay, interesting. Just like regular people. Nothing... Right? I mean, who wouldn't want that?
That is true. However, you know, what I have seen is that if you want to use that word, I don't know if I have a better word. It's about when we were students or teenagers, you're not that bold. You know, it's like, tell it to me. You know, if my teacher would have said something or my parents would have said something, I may not be cross-questioning.
You're right about that. The culture has definitely shifted and changed. So today's teenagers, they need to be satisfied with what you're talking about. So give us the authentic information. Give us honest conversation. That's what they want.
Yeah. I see the distinction because I'm thinking back to my teenage years and it's a long, long time ago. So it's hard for me to really remember that far back. But you're right, back then, I didn't really question authority as much. It's like, okay, whatever, I'll just do it, you know, because I don't want conflict. Where, you're right, about today, kids today, I think of, my niece is not a teenager anymore, but I remember when she was. She was more mature than I think I was, for sure, when I was at age, you know, and certainly my boys were more mature when they were teenagers than I was when I was a teenager. So I get your point.
Right. One last question what book or resources most influence your thinking about educational transformation?
Ravneet: I would say the first one would be Co-Active Leadership. Co-Active Leadership really showed me a different kind of leadership, totally different kind of leadership where you involve people and the different dimensions to it. If you get an opportunity do read it. It's, you know, they do have a course I'm not asking you to do that but yeah it's a very good book.
And then there are other books like The Fifth Discipline from Peter Senge. Just love that book. Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Those are some of the books that I would say I have influenced.
Kumar: Yeah, I'd say that all those, I haven't read Co-Active Leadership, but the other two I have read and certainly very applicable to educational contexts. Right. So, yeah. All right, I lied. I have one more question. What's a moment of breakthrough you witness when a student grasps how to collaborate effectively?
Ravneet: You know, I have shared that already with you and I don't think, that was really a deciding, a defining moment for me when, you know, when the student said, "Oh, if I would know why this colleague, the student is telling me to take another topic. I would have seen that as different." So that kind of told me they don't understand empathy. Because we today are like our education system is too much individualistic. That we are so self-centered. And that's, that was really a breakthrough for me I mean as much it was for this other teacher right it was also for me as a as a trainer as facilitator of that.
Kumar: Yeah it's a great example thank you so much so is there anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like to share?
Ravneet: No I think this was good. Just want to share that we have started this organization with the name Center for Coaching and Education, and we look forward to work with different universities and schools as partners and to help us. We can't do it alone. We cannot do it alone. We definitely need others to help us develop this future, you know, as we generally say, the purpose of Center for Coaching in Education is empowering educators and shaping futures. I love their vision. That's really the aim.
Kumar: I love their vision. So, you know, when ready, I'll have you back on. We can talk more about the Center for Coaching in Education. If you need any... If you're interested in getting more information, I will include Ravneet's contact information in the show notes for this episode. Please contact her, and I'm sure she'll be delighted to share information about progress in that space. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you for joining, Ravneet. I appreciate you.
Ravneet: Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye.
Kumar: Bye.
