Trial by Fire: Building Leaders of Significance - Mosongo Moukwa
The Meridian Point Podcast
Host: Kumar Dattatreyan
Guest: Dr. Mosongo Moukwa
Air Date: December 16, 2024
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Kumar: Hi everyone, Kumar Dattatreyan here with The Meridian Point. And today we're joined by Mosongo Moukwa, a transformational leader with 30 years of senior R&D experience across global chemical and materials companies. From being handed his first management role straight out of his PhD with no training to becoming VP at SC Johnson, Mosongo discovered that leadership isn't about the title—it's about emotional connection.
He's the author of "Be a Leader of Significance" and currently runs Attaway Advanced Material while coaching small business owners to uncover hidden revenue without massive ad spend. Mosongo's approach centers on creating what he calls "small engines of innovation" by building shared vision and trust that makes people feel they're contributing to something bigger than themselves.
I love that. I love that it's more about the human connection than it is about some skill that you learn in school. So without further ado, let me welcome Mosongo to the stage. Thank you so much for being with me here on the show, Mosongo.
Mosongo: Thank you. Thank you, Kumar.
Kumar: Mosongo, first let me make sure—did I say your name correctly?
Mosongo: Yes, yes. Mosongo Moukwa, yes.
Kumar: Okay, perfect. So Mosongo, in your book, you share the story of Jim Lozinski, a hardworking, brilliant scientist your VP refused to recognize. When Jim came to your office asking to lead a major project, you chose him despite knowing it could cost you your job. Your VP turned red and even pulled you aside after the meeting to give you one last chance to change your mind. You said, "Jim is the right person," and walked away. What happened next? And what did that moment teach you about the courage required to be a leader of significance?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. Thank you, Kumar. This is actually a great question. But before we go, I just want to make a correction. Actually, I did not start at SC Johnson. I started with a chemical company in Cleveland. And then as I progressed through my career, I ended up as a vice president at SC Johnson.
Kumar: All right, very good. Yeah, I may have skipped some of the details. That's all right.
Mosongo: That's okay. Now, this is—what you're asking there is a great question. But let's maybe back up a little bit, huh? Because at that time, I just finished my PhD and I was a postdoc at Northwestern University near Chicago in Evanston, Illinois. And so I took a job with a specialty chemical company in Ohio. I was excited to be part of the research and development team. And I was dreaming of having patents, contributing to new products and so on.
But not long after I started, the VP of R&D called me into a one-on-one meeting. And he leaned forward in his chair and then he said, "Well, Mosongo, we have something else for you here. We're going to make you a manager." At that time, the company did not have a research group. They had some kind of technical service or so.
So I told him, I said, "Well, sir, I've not been a manager before, so I'm not sure how this will work out." He said, "No, no, don't worry. I've spoken to your colleagues and the whole thing. You'll be great for that particular job."
So suddenly I was a brand new manager with no management experience, and I had to figure things out. So that was really something there. But I think during that period, a few people helped me fill gaps in various ways, but I was more or less on my own.
So what crystallized for me, Kumar, and hopefully for your listeners out there, is the thought that growth and comfort will never coexist. So I think if we close our eyes for a moment and we think of those instances where we grew the most—actually, where we learned the most—were really when we were put in those uncertain situations. And I think when I look back, that crystallization made it much easier for me to take on these challenges and different jobs that were really difficult.
But to come to your question—early in my career, so there was—I was given an assignment that was really to focus on some new technology and so on. And so we were in this meeting and I was asked, "Who are you going to have lead this particular program?" So I said, "Jim."
And then this particular VP, the way he was managing the department, he was assigning people for various groups even though the managers were supposed to be doing that. And then I told him, "Well, I'm going to give it to Jim."
So the vice president was extremely annoyed. I could see from his face. My colleagues had their heads in their notes in that particular meeting and whatnot. And then he said, "Well, I think you should have taken Frank."
I said, "Well, no, I think Jim will be the right candidate."
So as I walked out of the office, some of my colleagues came to me. They said, "Oh, you should have really not done that. You know, this fellow is going to fire you," and so on and so on.
And then later on, actually, the VP came to me and then he said, "I think you should really reconsider. I think Frank will be the right candidate."
So I disagreed with him and so on. And then he said, "Suit yourself."
And then what happened next is really—this fellow Jim, I knew he was a very bright scientist. But for whatever reason, he never really had the spotlight on him. So I gave him the assignment and I provided him the support. And we delivered. We delivered on that project beyond expectations. So much so that this particular individual became the sought-out person in the department whenever we had a somewhat difficult project or complex project to lead.
But I have to confess that it was a bit—I think every manager, at some point in their career, they're going to be facing that situation where you really need to take a stand on what deep inside you, you really think is the right thing to do and to be prepared to be held accountable. And I had somewhat of faith that we're going to be successful, and I worked very hard along with Jim and we made it through.
And that really became—you know, actually, my job and my performance those days became extraordinary. So much so that then I got promoted multiple times within the company. I ended up having a senior role in another organization. So that's really what happened there, Kumar. That was a great question. Thank you.
Kumar: Thank you. I mean, it was a great example. It sort of reminds me of this book, "The Multipliers." So to be someone of significance—I'm going to borrow the name of the title of your book—you have to be able to multiply yourself in some way and plant seeds where people can sort of take root and sprout and develop their own leadership, right? And be seen for what they can do.
And a lot of times, I think that there is a difference between managers and leaders, and managers manage things and leaders develop people. Would you agree with that statement?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I fully agree, Kumar, because in my mind, developing others—I mean, leadership is not a solo venture. That's what I like to say. So it's not about how far we progress, but it's really in terms of, I would say, how far we help other people progress. That's really what leadership is.
But the developing people can also be tricky, complex, and sometimes uncomfortable at times because it's really a journey of exploration. It's a journey of exploration in a way punctuated with moments of discovery. So while on that journey, the employees, they have to maintain that growth mindset at the same time. So that's what I would say. But leadership, you're absolutely right, it's not a solo venture.
Kumar: Yeah. So what is it that you—I mean, you've obviously had a lot of success. I'm reading some of the questions that I prepared, and we may get to some of them, maybe none of them. But your career trajectory has been about transformation, going into companies in different parts of the world, really, and transforming them.
Can you speak to one of those transformation stories in your career? Maybe the India transformation that I've read about, where you helped a company unlock some creativity that was being wasted? Maybe you can share that story.
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, Kumar. So, so, so in that regard, I have to say that when I was recruited by a company in India, I was recruited by a company that was already pretty large, and at the time I was living in the US. So I went for the interview, and then they, you know, obviously went very well. And then I asked the CEO there, I said, "So, how are you going to judge my success or failure? How are you going to judge it?"
So there was a moment of silence there. And then he said, "Well, you know, Mosongo, we have been growing at about 10% year over year for the past five years, six years, but that growth has really plateaued now. We will judge you on whether you can get us back on track to higher innovation."
And I think that was the moment, Kumar, that really struck me because at the time when I looked at the organization—and I look at many organizations when I—I coach those organizations when I go in—is that creativity is there. Innovation is there. But somehow, people, I would say, are not really galvanized around a mission or a vision. So that became clear to me that there needs to be that alignment there.
And so I really put a premium into building that relationship with the people. I wanted to make sure that I work with every level of the organization, not just staying in my office, making sure that I'm spending time in the lab, in the plants, understanding the pain points that people have, what their aspirations are. And then as I was collecting that information and building those relationship—and I did not rush. I really took my time to build those relationship because I wanted people to see my genuineness.
And I can tell you, Kumar, that within a matter of a couple of years, that company went on to develop, I would say over seventy patents. That's, I would say, from a company that was not known to be very innovative, then all of a sudden people begin to recognize the type of innovation that was happening within that organization. The productivity increased within those departments by over twenty percent or so.
But most importantly, though, Kumar, is that we begin to have new products flowing into the market. And so, and that contributed to about ten percent of the overall sales. And we became the first company in India to have a green portfolio of products, environmental-friendly products that we were able to create. So, and so that became quite something, a phenomenon there. And so much so that the government was inviting us in many presentations and we begin to win awards. And so this is—and everybody was recognizing us for innovation now.
Kumar: Yeah.
Mosongo: But I attribute that to the fact that I really put a premium into building those relationships and really getting to know my people and keeping everybody aligned.
Kumar: So when you first arrived in India, I'm assuming you came from the US. So you went there and, you know, I imagine it must have been quite the culture shock. And I imagine there was probably some resistance from certain people that thought they had the answer and have been there for years and years. And here comes this person from the US to teach them how they should do things.
So how did you overcome that resistance and dismantle the silos that existed in the organization? Because that's often the biggest challenge when you're trying to transform—is people being open to the change.
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, Kumar. That's a great question there. And you can imagine the scenario that you just painted actually happened. That's exactly what happened. You know, actually, the company did not have any research group at all at that time when I was hired. None. There were no research labs. None. I mean, so when they hired me, they thought I was going to be part of a manufacturing group because they did not have one. So it was a shock for them in that regard.
So what I really did there, Kumar, is that I really had to exercise a lot of empathy, which is a must as a leader, by the way. Because I could see that, yeah, it was going to be difficult in the beginning for people to feel comfortable with, I would say, somebody who was coming from outside. But putting that effort into building that relationship, getting to know them, and making sure that when I'm doing various meetings and so on, I'm not imposing my perspectives but really seeking input from them. And that that input is genuine, that I'm seeking input genuinely. And when they provide that input, I show them that I appreciate that. And we incorporate that into the various strategies. So I'm not just there as a figurehead, but really I want to see the contribution of people. And people begin to realize that, "Oh, okay, I see. He's genuine. He's different than what we have seen, perhaps, with other leaders."
Kumar: Right.
Mosongo: And so that really helped to break whatever silos that may be existing in the organization.
Kumar: So you had a very significant impact in India. And I understand that there was also a similar story from Japan where you were able to help transfer technology that had previously failed for over a decade. Can you share a little bit of that story with us?
Mosongo: Yes, yes. So, yes, so after the success in India, the parent company, which was a Japanese company, wanted me to come back to the US to lead a subsidiary here. And the mandate was clear. The mandate was that for the past fifteen years or so, this company based in North Carolina, they have been trying to transfer a technology from Japan that was failing. And this became even more critical because, if they fail, the parent company would cut them loose and they would be done.
So I came in, and I think the CEO—when I asked the CEO how he will judge my success and failure, he said, "I will judge it based on whether you get the technology from Japan here. That's the only thing." Very clear. No ambiguity.
So, so Kumar, what I did there is that again, I went in and I looked at what happened. So people told me—they said, "Oh, well, you know, we have been sending information. We have been communicating. You know, we have been asking. They are not cooperative. They don't want to share. They are difficult to work with." And so on and so on.
So I said, "Okay, I can see what the challenge is." So what I did there is that I said, "Okay, how many times have we traveled to Japan to go to sit and to work with them?" And they said, "Well, nobody has traveled to Japan." I said, "Nobody has traveled in fifteen years?" They said, "No." I said, "Okay. Well, this is what we're going to do. I'm going to travel to Japan."
So I began to plan. I got ready, and then I went to Japan. I spent three weeks in Japan—in Tokyo and at other facilities. And again, I really put a lot of effort into building that relationship. I wanted to understand what they were doing. And I realized, Kumar, that they were very friendly actually. They were very nice people. But the real issue was that we on this end were not putting an effort into understanding what their challenges were also. And what they needed from us.
So what I did is that I came back and I began to organize things. And I'm making sure that we have frequent communication. I made sure that I traveled to Japan at least once a quarter. And we worked things out. Gradually, we begin to build that trust. And as we begin to build that trust, things begin to flow. The technology begin to get transferred. The knowledge begin to get transferred. And I began to work very closely, even culturally, trying to understand their cultural dynamics and making sure that when we communicate with them, they also understand that we understand them.
And Kumar, within two years, we successfully transferred the technology. And the company now is flourishing because with that technology, we were able to create different types of products here, which helped us expand in North America. So that particular experience, it all boils down to the fact that yes, being technically sound is important, but you have to put a premium into building that relationship and understanding other people's challenges.
Kumar: Right. And I think that's a theme that's running through all of your experiences. And in your book, you contrast transactional leadership with transformational leadership. And from your experience across SC Johnson and Asian Paints and other global companies, what are specific behaviors that separate leaders who simply manage transactions from those who actually transform organizations?
Mosongo: Yeah. So transactional leaders, what they tend to do, Kumar, is that they tend to view people as resources that are there just to execute certain tasks. So when they engage with people, it's just, "Hey, what's the progress on the project? Let's just hit the numbers. Let's focus on revenue." And so on and so on.
So it becomes very much like a transaction. You give me this input and I give you this output. That's it. We are done. And I really don't want to know anything about you. And I don't want to have any relationship with you. So that's the transactional leader.
Now the transformational leader is different because the transformational leader actually creates an environment where people feel valued. Where people can bring their best to work. Where people feel that they are part of something much bigger than themselves. And that's the transformational leader. The transformational leader recognizes people not just as human resources or resources, but as human beings. And invests into developing those people. And makes sure that when people leave that organization—say somebody gets promoted and goes elsewhere—people actually remember that particular leader because of what that leader did for them. Not because they had a certain title or they achieved this target, but how that leader made them feel. That's the difference.
Kumar: Right. That's a very good distinction. I was just coaching someone yesterday and we were talking about being a transformational leader versus transactional leader. And I think that the nuances that you just shared are so important. Because I think we all fall into that transactional mode from time to time where we're in a meeting and we're just focused on the numbers and what do we need to accomplish and not necessarily investing the time to understand the people and how they're doing and what motivates them.
So, Mosongo, I'm curious. You write about learning agility as one of the most important competencies for leaders. You even had a situation where you accepted a VP position in Wisconsin, moved your family, and days before starting, you received a call that the CEO who hired you was out. There had been a shake-up. How did you navigate that situation? And what does learning agility really mean in practice?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. That was something, Kumar. So, so yes. So I accepted a job and I moved my family from Ohio to Wisconsin. And a few days to my starting—I was getting ready, excited—and then the headhunter called me and then told me, "Mosongo, you know, the CEO, he's gone." I said, "What do you mean he's gone?" He said, "Well, there has been a shake-up and the CEO is gone."
So, so my first reaction was, "Okay, what does that mean for me?" Right? Because I just picked up everything, moved my whole family. But I've learned over the years that when you are presented with those types of situations, you don't panic. You really take the time to understand what that means. And then you adapt. You bring whatever skill set, whatever experience you have had in the past, and then you begin to adapt.
So what I did there is that I took the time and I said, "Okay, well, I've already accepted the job. Let me go and meet the new CEO." So I met the new CEO and we had a conversation. And I said, "Look, I'm here. I understand you have a different plan. Where do you see me fitting in?" And we just had a conversation. And I realized that he was very welcoming and he said, "No, we are excited to have you join us." And so on.
So I was able to adapt and things went well. But the learning agility, Kumar, is really about having that mental flexibility. Is that when you are being presented with those types of challenges, you don't freeze. You don't panic. But you are able to leverage what you have learned in the past and you are able to incorporate new learnings into that and you adapt. And you move forward. So that's what I would say is learning agility.
Kumar: Right. And I think that's so important because, you know, the world is changing rapidly. And I think leaders need to be able to adapt quickly. And you've obviously demonstrated that throughout your career.
So, Mosongo, I'm also curious about your current work coaching small business owners. You help them overcome revenue plateaus, and you talk about helping them uncover hidden revenue without massive ad spend—sometimes just by changing their message. Can you share a specific example or strategy that you've used with a client that helped them break through that plateau?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. So, so let me give you a hypothetical example because I don't want to name the actual client, but it's very similar to what happened. So there was a manufacturing company that was doing export. And they were doing about, I would say, five million dollars or so in revenue. And they plateaued for about four years or so. Same, same, same.
So when I began to work with them, what I realized is that they were focusing their attention on the wrong customers. They were focusing their attention on customers who actually were draining their resources, but not bringing a lot of revenue. So they were spending all their time servicing those customers.
So what I did with them is that I helped them understand the Pareto principle—the eighty-twenty rule. I said, "Look, you need to focus on the twenty percent of your customers that are bringing you eighty percent of your revenue. And you need to perhaps let go of some of those customers that are draining you."
So they did that analysis and they realized that yes, they had a number of customers that really were not contributing much. So they went ahead and they streamlined their customer base. And they focused their attention on the twenty percent. And when they did that, their revenue went up by about thirty percent within the year.
Kumar: Wow.
Mosongo: Yeah. So that's an example. But it's not just that, Kumar. I think it's also helping them understand that when you're focused on the right things, you also have time now. You have time now to focus on developing your people. You have time now to focus on your personal life. You have time now to focus on strategic thinking. So that's what I help them with.
Kumar: Yeah. And I think time is such a valuable commodity, especially for small business owners who wear so many hats. So being able to help them reclaim some of that time so they can focus on the strategic stuff and not just the day-to-day firefighting is huge.
So, Mosongo, you mentioned the emotional connection as the foundation of leadership. And I'm curious—how do you teach that? Because I think some people might say, "Well, that's just not who I am. I'm not a people person." How do you help leaders develop that skill if it doesn't come naturally to them?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. So that's a great question, Kumar. Because I think many people think that emotional connection or emotional intelligence is something that you either have or you don't have. But actually, it's a skill that can be developed. It really can be developed.
So what I tell leaders is that you have to be intentional about it. You have to be intentional. So if you are not the type of person who naturally connects with people, then you have to make an effort. You have to schedule time on your calendar to go and have coffee with one of your employees. You have to make an effort to ask them about their lives, about their families.
And in the beginning, it may feel a bit awkward. It may feel uncomfortable. But as you continue to do it, it becomes more natural. And what happens, Kumar, is that when you invest that time in getting to know people, people begin to open up. And when they open up, you begin to see them as human beings, not just as resources. And that changes the dynamic.
And I've seen leaders who were very transactional in the beginning, but as they begin to practice this, they become more transformational. So it is a skill that can be developed. You just have to be intentional about it.
Kumar: Right. I think that's great advice. And I think the key word there is "intentional." You have to make the effort. You have to put it on your calendar. You have to actually do it, not just think about doing it.
So, Mosongo, you talk about creating "small engines of innovation." Can you explain what you mean by that and how leaders can create those within their organizations?
Mosongo: Yes, yes, yes. So the small engines of innovation, what I mean by that is that when you have an organization where people are aligned around a shared vision and they feel that they're contributing to something bigger than themselves, they become motivated to innovate. They become motivated to bring new ideas. They become motivated to take risks.
So as a leader, what you need to do is create that environment. You need to make sure that people understand the vision. You need to make sure that people feel valued. You need to make sure that people have the resources they need to innovate. And you need to make sure that people feel safe to fail.
Because innovation, Kumar, requires experimentation. And experimentation means that sometimes things will not work. So if people are afraid to fail, they will not innovate. So you have to create that environment where people feel safe to experiment, to try new things, and to fail. And when they fail, you learn from it and you move forward.
So when you create that environment, what happens is that you begin to see innovation happening at all levels of the organization. Not just at the top, but at all levels. And that's what I call the small engines of innovation. Because every person, every team becomes an engine of innovation.
Kumar: Right. And I think that ties back to the emotional connection and the trust that you build with people. Because if they trust you and they know that you have their back, then they're more willing to take risks and try new things.
So, Mosongo, we're running a little short on time here. But I want to ask you—and this might be difficult to answer—but if someone listening to this podcast wants to start their journey toward becoming a leader of significance today, which of the practices that you outline in your book should they focus on first?
Mosongo: I would say focus on developing relationships with the people. Not some superficial relationship. Obviously, it takes time to build that, but focus on that human connection. Focus on getting to know your people. Focus on not just always asking them about the projects, but ask them about their daily life. Ask them what really excites them about their day. What do they want to achieve in life? Those types of conversations.
Many managers, frankly, avoid having them. Now, for whatever reason, we tend to see people—"Hey, hey John, how is the project going? Let's meet to discuss the project"—you know? No, no, no, no. You can take the time for coffee and say, "Hey man, how was your weekend going? Did you watch the game?" and then laugh there, you know, and so on and so on. And then say, "Oh, last week I heard your son was not well. How is he doing now?" So you put in that touch there.
I remember one manager one day told me—and I was not aware of it—but he said, "Mosongo, I was walking in the corridor," and I told him—I said, "Hey"—his name was Rajiv—I said, "Hey, Rajiv"—according to him, he said I was passing the corridor and I said, "Hey, Rajiv, don't think I've not seen you. I did not forget you."
And he told me that comment there made him feel valued, you know? He felt that he was now part of something much bigger than himself. I did not realize it at the time. But so those are some of those small gestures that us as a leader that we should employ, right? Because people then—they get energized. People then they can perform. They take joy coming to the office to do their work.
Kumar: You're right. I think people just want to be seen.
Mosongo: Yeah, people want to be seen. You said it well. Absolutely.
Kumar: And what you're saying is often overlooked. I mean, I don't do it often enough with the people that I lead—is just acknowledge them and say, "Hey, I see you. I see you for who you are." And I think there's a certain element of authenticity that needs to be felt over the camera, over the tone of voice. Just saying, "Hey, how are you doing? How was your weekend?" and then moving on and becoming really a transactional leader after that...
Mosongo: Yeah, it becomes—yeah. And we do it a lot, sometimes without realizing. "Hey, how are you doing?" And we are not even thinking whether the fellow is doing well or not, you know? It becomes just like almost mechanic, you know?
Kumar: Yeah.
Mosongo: But take the time and say, "How are you really doing?"
Kumar: Yeah. How are you doing? That's right. Yeah, I think the conversation is resonating with the audience. We don't have a huge crowd today, but I know this video will be watched again and again. So I'm really happy to have you on.
I thought we would end our conversation with some lightning round questions just to rapid fire—the first thing that comes to mind. So you've lived all over the world—in the Congo and Quebec and now in Chapel Hill, in India, I'm assuming in Japan. What's the most valuable cultural insight you've carried with you that has shaped how you lead?
Mosongo: The cultural insight which I find anywhere I've gone is that when you establish that relationship, genuine one with the people, then you really will be welcome in whatever culture, in their house and so on.
When I went to Japan, I told the people there that we don't want just to eat every day in those expatriate restaurants and whatnot, but I wanted to eat where they were eating. That was well appreciated. So they took me in some of those small, small restaurants there where I was the only foreigner there. It was well appreciated by them and everybody was talking about it and so on.
So those small gestures there are appreciated. In India, when I lived there, it was the same thing. And I attended many of the weddings of some of the scientists—very, very low-level people—which in that part of the world, many of the senior people don't always attend. But the fact I was going there, the parents of the groom, of the bride, were very much appreciative. And those individuals consequently also—they appreciated my genuineness. So when they come to work, they were able to perform.
So this is what I found anywhere, anywhere I went, anywhere I went. And you see people there laughing, joking with you, giving the respect that you deserve, but you don't feel like you are this outlier. You feel like there is some kind of a bond that is developing.
Kumar: Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. So your book is filled with lots of stories from your journey. Some of them you've shared here in this call. What's the one story you didn't include that you wish you had?
Mosongo: Ah, a story that I did not include that I wish I had. I think I did not include some of the—I focused on the leadership, but I think I should have included also perhaps some of the non-business. Because while I was in many of those countries, I also traveled around just in my own to discover the countries also. This is a piece that I wish I've included also to give people a bit of flavor of some of those places. Maybe because I did not know how to craft it in the book, but I think it would have been probably—it would have given a different dimension in the book.
Kumar: It would have given people more of a context for your experience there, not just the stories, but also your experience in the country and the culture and things like that.
Mosongo: Sure.
Kumar: Maybe that's another book.
Mosongo: Yeah, well, I'm working on another book, Kumar, which I'm hoping to launch early next year. This one is focusing on small business owners.
Kumar: Yeah, that's one question I didn't ask you because I know you're working with small business owners now.
Mosongo: Yes.
Kumar: So maybe I'll do this in the form of a lightning round question. So give us your thirty-second pitch. What's the fastest way a small business owner listening right now could identify a hidden revenue opportunity tomorrow?
Mosongo: Well, I think if you focus on the twenty percent that drive your revenue—that is, you can achieve financial independence in less time. Which means focus on the twenty percent, which means the eighty percent that you also have to get rid of—the eighty percent that is draining you.
Kumar: Sure.
Mosongo: So one needs to calibrate their mind and refocus that way.
Kumar: I love it. Right, Mosongo, we're getting at the end of our time together. Anything I didn't ask you you'd like to share?
Mosongo: No, this was certainly a great, great conversation, Kumar. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. My book is called—this book we are talking about is called "Be a Leader of Significance." For some of the people who are listening—if they're leaders or senior leaders or managers—this could be a great gift for yourself or to other people that you know. You'll find there lots of practices, lots of stories. At the end of each chapter, there are some practices, some tips that you can use and so on. And let's make the world a better place.
Kumar: I love it. Yeah, I'll make sure I include the link to the book in the show notes of the podcast. And that way people can get a link to it. And I may start a little book club using your book as material because, you know, everyone can stand to learn some techniques, some tips, some advice, whatever it is. But I think maybe having a discussion around the lessons in the end of each chapter—that sounds like a really good way to sort of supercharge a group of people to be better leaders. So love that.
All right. Thank you so much again. Thanks for watching. For those of you who joined, we'll see you again next week.
Mosongo: It's great being on your show. Thank you.
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