Rising from the Ashes: The Abundance Paradox
The Meridian Point Podcast - Episode with Rafael Ribeiro
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Hi, everyone. Kumar Dattatreyan here with the Meridian Point. It's holiday week, so if you're celebrating Christmas or Hanukkah, whatever you're celebrating, I hope you have a wonderful week this week. I have the pleasure today of introducing an old acquaintance of mine, Rafael Ribeiro. I hope I said his name right. He's an agile coach, a surf instructor, creative entrepreneur, navigating one of life's most profound disruptions—reinventing the self.
So I'm sure all of you at some point in your lives have gone through this, where you're in an inflection point in your career, in your home, in your personal or professional life, or maybe all of the above, all combined in one moment where you are sort of like the phoenix rising up from the ashes. And today's episode is all about that.
What better time to be thinking about reinventing oneself except at the end of the year as we celebrate life in the past year and celebrate the holiday traditions that we often do this time of the year. So today's episode is all about that.
Rafael has pursued his passion for people work through psychology, expressive arts therapy, and professional coaching. He's founded multiple ventures, including his Abundance Flow program that merges surf instruction with personal transformation. Currently based in Portugal with his two daughters, Rafael recently shared his financial struggles publicly on LinkedIn—a vulnerable move that sparked unexpected support and new opportunities.
Join us as we explore the phoenix cycle of disruption, building, burning, and rising again. So without further ado, here is Rafael. Welcome to the show, Rafael.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Hey, Kumar, thank you for the invitation. Always a pleasure to have a chat with you.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah, this is going to be a fun conversation. You said in one of our prior chats that the most powerful feeling you had after sharing your financial struggles was lightness—that you're now an open book with nothing to hide. Walk us through that moment when you decided to share your vulnerability.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Definitely. I was talking with a friend today about this, and because he's also in tech, I made an analogy about the situation I was living. If I was a computer, I had two main processes happening at that time. One was my presentation layer, meaning how I would present myself to the world. And I was working on projects. I was coaching people. I was delivering training. I was even running the cohort around abundance.
And the other was what I was feeling inside—this despair, this lack of identity, this financial struggle at the same time. And it was just too heavy of a load on my processors, on my computer. And when I shared, it was almost like going to task manager and killing the process of managing this mask of "everything is okay," while inside it was not okay.
And so it kind of made my computer free to process other things that started to happen. And also this feeling of lightness of, okay, I don't have to deal with this internal struggle, which is external perspective versus internal perspective. I can live only one. And it was easier to live with that only one.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
That's really profound and powerful. Were you fearful, or was it just an unconscious decision to open up the mask, open the armor, and reveal what you were feeling internally?
Rafael Ribeiro:
I was fearful. And while I was drafting the message that I was going to share, for many, many times, I almost gave up. And what made me continue and pursue was actually tapping into the most instinctive and primal feeling there is, which is survival. Survival of myself, survival of my daughters.
So that survival instinct overcame the fear. So when I shared, it was almost something practical. Like, I need to do this, otherwise I won't survive. The fear of losing whatever it was that I would lose—either the total respect or even care in my mind of my daughters, or making them lose anything because of my situation—overcame my fear of what other people would think.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I can see where it could be very liberating to be able to... I love the computer analogy, actually. You know, sort of like what you present to the world and what's going on under the surface, right? All these tasks that are running around in your brain, fighting for the light of day perhaps. And what's keeping them at bay is your conscious decision not to reveal those things.
And I wonder how many of us are able to, you know, go to work or even at home—in our personal and professional lives—be a total open book. And let's start with maybe the work situation. Brené Brown has written about people wearing a mask at work and how over time that can really be debilitating to that individual. And so it's always useful to take the mask off, to show your vulnerability, to admit to the things that you don't know and you fear. And that's great leadership advice—a book that leaders read often and quote often.
But I wonder how practical that is. And if for you, certainly you came to a breaking point and you did this publicly, but how would that translate? What advice would you give people in the workplace that they can use and take away for next year?
Rafael Ribeiro:
So one of the things that people came to me to talk about after the video was that they felt not only courage that I was being brave by sharing, but also that I was doing it from a conscious and also secure and grounded place.
So, I don't know if it needs to be like this, but because I had felt despair and I sought help privately with people that I cared about—and even in those inner circles it was difficult for me to actually share something because I was also feeling like I was failing them. So that helped me deal with the despair and the emotional charge of that moment.
So when I came out to say, "Hey, I am experiencing this" to my professional network, I feel the emotional charge didn't come through because I had dealt with that previously. So maybe—and this is just me exploring—in a professional situation when you have to maintain some level of professionalism, being able to divide this complex problem into two smaller problems, which is: okay, what is the emotional charge I am feeling around what I'm experiencing?
And deal with that either in a closer circle, a circle outside of work, because not everyone may be able to handle this emotional charge. And then after you handle that emotional charge, then you can talk about the facts—not living the facts at the moment that you're talking, which I felt like that happened.
When I recorded that video, it was almost like me reporting my situation and sharing it, not living the situation while I was recording the video. So maybe my message came strong but also clear without the emotional charge of everything that I was experiencing.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I wonder, you know, in the workplace especially, people may not feel safe to be vulnerable, right? There's an element of psychological safety there. And for you, you were able to record your message in the privacy of your home, really thinking through it and going through the fear cycles. What if I do? What if I don't? And all that emotion came out in the video, I'm sure, and you shared that.
But once you were done, I'm sure you felt a sense of relief, right? I mean, you felt the lightness, is how you put it in our conversation before. And I wonder if the advice to people out there that have some trauma from work situations that have built up and they have been unable to share those in the workplace because of a lack of psychological safety or whatever it might be—if it just may be, not recording a video necessarily, but examining what the emotions are, maybe writing them down some way so that when they get to the workplace, they can be more effective at sharing it and being more vulnerable at work. What do you think?
Rafael Ribeiro:
I would say that this was my path as well. So I had therapy. I also sought a coach for myself. And there I was able to share and also feel that desperation. Because there were many times that I was crying while talking with the therapist or with the coach. Like, I felt that despair and that inability to breathe almost. Because it was just too much.
And when I was okay with how I was feeling, not only explaining the how but also feeling it for what it was, then I was able to actually address the reasons and deal with the reasons. But this is only possible when we stop the cycle of, "I need to hide this. I'm a failure." And start accepting, "Yeah, this is what is happening." This is my situation. Some of it, I brought it to myself. Some of it came because of other factors. And not from a perspective of guilt, but for a perspective of awareness. And then, when I actually shared it in the end, it was so processed, so deconstructed, that I wasn't anymore the monster I thought I was. I was just a person.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah, and that's a really important distinction. And I think that's what vulnerability is about. It's not oversharing or throwing emotional trauma at people and expecting them to help you process it. It's understanding that you've processed it, you've come to some kind of understanding or acceptance of it, and then you can share that with others in a way that is both authentic and also respectful of their ability to handle it.
And I think that's the key difference between just dumping on people versus being genuinely vulnerable. So I think that's great advice.
You mentioned your family has gone through multiple generations of building wealth and losing it—this pattern of creativity followed by neglect of the "boring" administrative work. What does that pattern look like when it's happening, and when did you first recognize you were repeating it?
Rafael Ribeiro:
The first times that I felt I was really in this pattern was every time I looked at my accounts and I saw that I was basically earning and spending, earning and spending, and not much holding. And I could feel and also understand what was making me earn because those parts I loved—doing the trainings, the coaching, creating stuff, building projects, making connections.
But I had no idea of what made me lose things, because I wasn't tracking it. I didn't know what was happening with my money. I didn't know what was happening with many of these processes and bureaucratic things that you must do, like contracts, agreements, invoicing. And this allowed me to be exploited in a sense, and also to make choices that at the time I wasn't completely conscious of the full picture. And that also could harm me. So that's one.
But the more interesting thing is the legacy of my family. So my great-grandfather had a small fortune, brought a shop from Portugal to Brazil in 1935. And after he passed away, he left everything for his kids. And my grandfather, who was one of them, completely lost everything. But then my grandfather also became rich again. And then he died as well and also left everything for his kids, and my father lost everything. And my father became rich. And you see the pattern, right?
And I just recently, through this despair that I was feeling, actually went to read about each one of them and their financial relationships. Because up until then, I wasn't really interested in learning about this. But I learned that some of the things that made them not care about money, or the hold they had on money, were also being present, not only in me but also in my sister. And I'm starting to see some signs on my oldest daughter as well.
So I said, "Okay, I need to put a stop on this now." And it started with me, because I will not change my dad or my family or my sister. I need to start with me because it's also easier, in a sense, to focus on your own behavior. And maybe by starting with me, I'm also serving as a role model or a light for the others to also pursue on their own terms.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
So what you're doing differently this time—you mentioned building tools, like your finance app—what changed? Why are you willing to face the boring stuff now when previous generations weren't?
Rafael Ribeiro:
I had my own company, right? And I remember I had an accountant managing all these stuff. And I hired him to a point that I completely abdicated from what I needed to do. Like signing the documents, answering his calls, understanding what he needed from me. And then I lost some money, I lost some time, and I had to replace him. And the new one also saw this pattern in me. And at some point, he said, "Rafael, I cannot continue working with you because you make it extremely difficult for me to help you."
So I had to become conscious of what I had to provide for him to do his work. So I had to start doing some stuff that previously I said, "No, I delegated this to you." And then he said, "Yeah, but you need to help me do this work." So it started because I felt the consequences of being extremely negligent. And I lost money because of this. And I almost got sued. Like, I got letters, threatening letters, invoices that I didn't knew about. Like, it was a mess.
And when I had to clean this mess, I said, "Okay, at least for me to feel slightly secure that this won't happen again, I need to know what's going on." And then I decided that I wanted to track, day to day, what were my expenses and my incomes. And that felt like the most boring job ever, because I really don't like to be day to day looking at a spreadsheet and typing the data in a format that I had no control over—because you may know about spreadsheets—they are an amazing tool, but also a nightmare if you need consistency on how the data is in there.
So I decided to build my own app. And in the app, the computer will do what I would ask him to do. So I can control how the format is going to be. And because I've experienced the struggle and the difficulty of filling all this information, every time I'm presented with the question of what information I want to add to my form for me to fill, I immediately realize if this is relevant or not to me. And I try to keep it as minimum as possible with the basic stuff that I need to know—which is, basically, when did I make a money movement? Is it money coming in or out? How much and what category?
And that was it at first. Then I added more stuff because I felt like I could. And now I'm at a stage where I'm like, okay, I need to stop myself from adding even more stuff because I want to be able to use it for the thing that I need it to be, not to become a procrastination tool in some way of me playing with code and exploring and creating shiny things instead of using the tool to help me solve my problem.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Right. So you're facing it. And I think that's the key—you're not delegating and forgetting about it. You're taking ownership while working with your wiring, not against it. And I think that's really powerful.
You mentioned you felt Agile wasn't everything you wanted—you needed to bring together surf instruction, coding, dance, psychology, neuroscience. For transformation professionals listening who might be feeling constrained by their labels or industries, what was the cost of staying in that box, and what gave you permission to break out?
Rafael Ribeiro:
I didn't felt complete in what I was being asked to do, or at least it was perceived that I should be doing. Because I wanted to work with leaders, with people, with the psyche, with the emotions, with the body, with movement. And Agile was focusing more on the teams and the processes and the frameworks. And I know this is a reductionism and not at all what is the core message or intentions of Agile. But, like, this is how the market at some point started to be.
And I felt that I was using 10 or 20% of everything that I knew and I could bring. And by also seeing that the market for this kind of niche that we were was starting to—I won't say disappear, but at least it was becoming smaller and smaller, or at least harder to have visibility or to get projects and clients. And I felt like, okay, I need to expand to other domains. Or at least I need to allow myself to use what I have and not only that specific narrow path.
And so I started to explore. And that's when I became a surf instructor. And it was also an old dream that I had. I think even when you and me talked many years ago, I was already exploring surf. But then I decided, "I really want to make this official, not only a hobby." And so I went and become a certified surf instructor. And I really enjoy it because it uses my body, it uses nature, it uses this very present and meditative state and understanding of how to work with the human being, which is my student.
And then I also wanted to bring leadership and people work and coaching. And I started just mixing whatever I wanted to mix and gave myself the permission to not be called an Agile coach, but maybe call me a coach, a surf instructor, a facilitator, a trainer, a mentor. And use whatever labels I want and feel free to also not use a label at all.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah. And I think that's liberating in its own way, right? Because we get so caught up in these professional identities. And for me, I went through something similar where I was an Agile coach, and then I realized I'm really just a coach. And what I'm coaching on can be anything. It doesn't have to be Agile. It can be life, it can be business, it can be leadership, it can be whatever the person needs.
And I think that's a really important evolution for transformation professionals—to realize that the frameworks and methodologies are just tools. They're not your identity. Your identity is helping people transform and grow and develop. And you can use whatever tools are appropriate for that situation.
You credit your physical training—surf instruction, obstacle course racing, somatic work—with giving you the strength to endure this financial and emotional rollercoaster. You said, "I felt strong in my body. I felt grounded." Why is separating physical fitness from business resilience dangerous, especially during disruption?
Rafael Ribeiro:
When we neglect our body and we don't feel grounded and we don't feel physically strong, we also lose the reference of what grounding is, what strength is, what clarity is. Because the body and the mind, they are one. They're not disconnected. And when we are in fight, flight, or freeze mode—which is what happens when we are in high stress, high pressure situations—we don't make the best decisions.
And if we are physically weak, if we are not taking care of our body, if we are not moving, if we are not breathing properly, if we are not sleeping well, all of this contributes to making our nervous system be in a state that is not optimal for decision-making, for creativity, for problem-solving. And especially in disruption, when everything around you is chaotic and you need to make decisions that can have a big impact on your life and the life of others, being physically grounded, being physically strong, having this reference of what it feels to be strong, to be grounded, to be present—it helps a lot.
And for me, specifically, I felt that because I was training, because I was surfing, because I was doing this obstacle course racing, I had moments in my week where I could disconnect from the chaos and just be present with my body, with the movement, with the challenge. And that gave me a sense of control, a sense of strength, a sense of, "Okay, I can handle this." Even if everything else is falling apart, I can still do a pull-up. I can still surf a wave. I can still run. And that was very powerful.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah. And I think what you're describing is that mind-body connection that a lot of business leaders and entrepreneurs ignore. They think, "I don't have time to work out. I don't have time to take care of my body. I'm too busy." But what they don't realize is that by not taking care of their body, they're actually reducing their capacity to handle the challenges that they're facing.
And I think that's a really important message, especially for people who are going through disruption, who are going through difficult times. Taking care of your body is not a luxury. It's a necessity. It's a fundamental part of being able to navigate those challenges effectively.
Your Abundance Flow program frames scarcity not as the enemy of abundance, but as part of the natural cycle—like flat days and storm days in surfing. How does seeing these as states rather than permanent conditions change how we navigate the phoenix cycle?
Rafael Ribeiro:
So when we see abundance and scarcity as states—transitory states—we stop judging ourselves or the situation as being permanent. And when we are in a scarcity moment, instead of saying, "This is who I am. This is my life. This is forever," we can say, "This is a moment. This is a state. And just like the ocean, sometimes there are flat days, sometimes there are big wave days, sometimes there are storm days. And they're all part of the cycle."
And when we are in abundance, we can also be aware that this is a state. And maybe use that abundance to prepare for the moments of scarcity. Instead of taking things for granted, instead of being negligent, instead of thinking, "Oh, this is going to be forever. I don't need to worry about anything." We can say, "Okay, I'm in a good moment now. Let me be grateful. Let me be aware. Let me also prepare and organize myself so that when the flat days come, I'm ready. I have savings. I have systems. I have support."
And the same thing with scarcity. When we are in scarcity, we can use that moment to gain clarity, to prioritize, to remember what is truly important, to connect with what we are grateful for. Because when we have abundance, sometimes we forget. We take things for granted. We don't appreciate what we have. And scarcity brings us back to that awareness.
So it's not about trying to avoid scarcity or trying to hold on to abundance forever. It's about understanding that they're both part of the cycle. And each one has its lessons. Each one has its gifts. And if we can embrace both, we can navigate the phoenix cycle with more grace, with more awareness, with more resilience.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah. And I think that reframe is really powerful because most people see scarcity as something to be avoided at all costs. And they see abundance as the goal, the destination. But what you're saying is that they're both just states. They're both temporary. And they both have value.
And I think that's a really important shift in perspective, especially for entrepreneurs and business leaders who are often chasing the next milestone, the next level of success, the next amount of revenue. And they're so focused on the abundance that they forget that the scarcity moments are actually where a lot of the learning happens, where a lot of the clarity comes from.
You're currently in discovery mode—meeting with everyone who reaches out, even people offering bakery jobs—just to see what pulls you. How do you distinguish between genuine discovery and just avoiding the fear of committing to the wrong thing again?
Rafael Ribeiro:
That's a great question. And I don't know if I have the full answer yet because I'm still in the process. But what I can say is that I'm trying to stay grounded. I'm trying to stay present. And I'm trying to notice what actually pulls me versus what is just interesting.
Because there's a difference between something that is interesting, that is shiny, that catches my attention for a moment, and something that actually pulls me, that makes me want to go deeper, that makes me want to invest time and energy and resources. And I'm trying to notice that distinction.
And also, I'm trying to trust the process. I'm trying to trust that by staying open, by meeting people, by exploring different opportunities, something will emerge. Something will become clear. And I don't need to force it. I don't need to decide right now. I can give myself permission to be in discovery mode for a little bit longer.
And at the same time, I'm also building. I'm not just exploring. I'm also creating. I'm building the finance app. I'm planning the retreats. I'm working with clients. So I'm not just in analysis paralysis. I'm actually taking action. But I'm taking action in multiple directions and seeing which one gains more momentum, which one feels more aligned, which one brings more energy.
And I think that's the balance—between staying open and exploring, and also committing and building. And for me, the survival instinct and the responsibility to my daughters helps guide that. Because I can't just explore forever. At some point, I need to commit. At some point, I need to choose. But I'm giving myself permission to take the time to do that thoughtfully.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah. And I think that's a really important distinction—that you're not just exploring, you're also building. You're not just thinking, you're also doing. And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck. They get stuck in the exploration phase and they never actually commit. Or they commit too quickly without exploring enough.
And finding that balance is really difficult. But it sounds like you're being intentional about it. You're paying attention to what pulls you versus what's just interesting. You're building while you're exploring. And you're trusting the process while also taking action. And I think that's a really healthy approach.
So you've walked away from traditional agile coaching, ended your marriage amicably, restructured your relationship with your daughters—maybe you're biking with them in the mornings to school, which is amazing. I love that opportunity that came about. You publicly acknowledged your financial struggles, and yet you say you feel grateful. So for someone in the middle of their own disruption, what does success look like when you're rising from the ashes? What are the new metrics?
Rafael Ribeiro:
So when you said rising from the ashes, everything is a choice, right? What life presents you may be a consequence of your own choices or may be something completely out of your control. And here in Portugal, during summer, we have a lot of problems with forest fires, right? Which decimate fauna, decimate houses—a lot of harm in many multiple ways.
But in the eyes of nature, after the fire comes a moment to rebirth. All the things that were burned become food and nutrition for the next generation of vegetation and even the new animals that are going to be living there. So the first thing that I feel is that when you burn everything, or when you sell everything that you have to have money to buy food, yes, you are losing stuff that you may hold dear.
But if we think just about physical space, you're cleaning the space for whatever new needs to come and will come. So it's an opportunity for you to start anew. Just like in my life as a coder, one of the things that I enjoyed the most was having the permission to do a full refactor, where I could take a legacy code and just throw it in the garbage to start new. Because you do not restart from where you were before, because you're not the same individual. You accumulated knowledge, you accumulated experience, you know how you could do things differently now.
So it is an opportunity to have a blank state and just reshape. Easier than to have a reshaping or remodeling process while still keeping everything that you had before. So that's my main motivation. And because I cannot mess around much, Kumar, with two daughters, life gets another perspective, right? I'm not only doing this for myself, I'm doing this also to show them different behaviors, different ways of being that hopefully will prevent some of the mistakes that I made. Maybe this will be positive or negative, who knows?
But this is also my responsibility as a father, as someone who's going to place two individuals out there in the world, and how to prepare them better for these kinds of situations.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
I can't hear you, Kumar. I think you're muted, sorry.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Yeah, I muted myself because there's somebody out there mowing the yard and I don't know if the sound made it through the mic.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Cleaning the environment to raise new stuff.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
It's always a cycle of rebirth, right? Everywhere you see—winter, all the leaves fall off, and then only to be born again in the spring when new leaves come, new shoots of grass and plants and all this stuff. Yeah, it is certainly that way.
So in that spirit, what's next for you in 2026?
Rafael Ribeiro:
What's next for me in 2026? More organization. I am building my own frameworks and tools to alleviate the logistical processes that were also put aside because of everything that I was living. And so I want to make things better and start the year more organized.
I'm also planning new retreats here in Portugal, Lisbon, bringing all of this that I have been experiencing in the recent past and also the things that I already know work and bring power to the transformation and the experiences—like surfing, mentoring, psychology, expressive arts, neuroscience. So that's definitely on the calendar.
And luckily enough—and I'm going to share this soon—I already got a coaching client out of this whole situation, a training project with a big organization, and more people are going to speak with me. I already have things booked in the calendar. So hopefully the rebirth process already started, and it's just going to be a lot of surfing in many different ways—in the water, outside of the water—for 2026.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure it will. You are an amazing person, a very talented person, very open person. And I'm sure you will start to fill in the space in a way that fulfills you and others, right? The people that you serve, that you coach, that you train, that you work with.
So how can people connect with you and learn about Abundance Flow?
Rafael Ribeiro:
So LinkedIn is definitely a place to be. I normally host live discussions for LinkedIn groups. It is something that is also being cooked with someone that I met after sharing my moment, where we share this passion for leadership in tech as well. So stay tuned to that.
On my LinkedIn, you have my call link where you can basically book a chat with me with no justification. I love to talk, I love to share, and to listen to others as well. I am rebuilding my website, which was also something that I didn't have before and it made total sense to do it now. So that would be the places—LinkedIn, Instagram, my call link, and my website for sure.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
All right. We'll make sure we include those links in the show notes for this episode when it goes on the podcast. Anything else you'd like to share before we end today?
Rafael Ribeiro:
Yes, I would like to wish everyone—independent of location, upbringing, education, religion, whatever it is—not only is the end of the year a moment for new beginnings, but every day, every minute, every millisecond is a moment for new beginnings.
And if you don't feel like you are currently capable of doing this alone, then reach out for help. Because at the other side of that movement of asking for help, there is no shame, there is no wrong. It's the opposite, or at least this is what I experienced. There's only gratitude, openness, fellow like-minded people that may be going through the same things as you.
And we give up when we lose hope, not when we despair. And if you are trembling on your hope for better days, don't suffer alone. Reach out. Even if it's just sending me a message saying, "Hey, I am losing hope. Let's have a chat."
Kumar Dattatreyan:
That's amazing. Thank you so much, Rafael, for being on the show and just sharing your inspiring message. And just for your presence—it's very inspiring, comforting. And I love that you're on the show, especially this time of the year, end of the year, new beginnings in the new year. I love what you said. Every day, every millisecond is really a chance for you to be reborn.
And those people are right outside my window, so I'm sure you're hearing it.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Yes, they are contributing to the rebirth of their grass.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
That's right. Actually, they're blowing leaves and doing other stuff. So anyway, with that, I'm going to say goodbye for now. And I will see you all in the new year. It'll be an end-of-the-year episode next week, but it'll just be a compilation of the most impactful for me episodes throughout the year, which this is definitely going to be up there.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Well, thank you so much, Kumar. Speak to you soon and have great holidays.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
Okay. Thank you. You too. Bye-bye.
Rafael Ribeiro:
Bye-bye.
Kumar Dattatreyan:
That was amazing.
